Creatbot F430 transformation. Question directly DC42
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ffnull, I think you may have a defective sensor, or possibly a wiring issue. I have an F430 using the stock sensor and I always do the bed mesh with the chamber and bed at temp; I have not had issues with the sensor even when the chamber is at 70c and the bed at 120c.
Note that the F430 has a converter for the gantry wiring (small board bottom left of your image) that--to the best I can figure--ramps up voltages for transmission over the ribbon cable, then steps down at the extruders. So, there are a lot of electronics between the main board and the actual bed sensor which could be causing trouble at temperature.
I am also about to start a Duet conversion on the 430, along with some motion redesign (to get Y and Z steppers out of the chamber). I agree; great hardware, horrific electronics!
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@maestro just curious, what advantage you will have by doing a duet conversion? My 430 is on the way and I happen to have a duet 2 board in hand.
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Many things are gained on the F430 by the conversion. For one, quiet stepper drivers, which the Createbot's definitely were not, at least at the time I purchased it.
Also, general configurability. You can't do much with the default firmware. If you're going to tinker, you will be annoyed quickly.
I have converted almost everything on my machine; I essentially used the (very nice) steel box frame, and little else. All the steppers are in new locations, new gantry, new electronics (first Duet 2 wifi, now finishing up 3 6HC install), watercooling, etc., etc. If you want to do these things you will not stay on the original mainboard, as you can't get into the firmware. If you don't want to get into the machine so much, the only thing you'll really gain is a much quieter machine.
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would like to upgrade mine F430 with duett 3, have the board already here, would like to know if it is possible to get some fotos of your conversion and if you have a wirering plan.
thx
stephan
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Here are a few images of mine as it sits now. Remaining to be done is install a berd-air pump in the second spool bay, once I've completed the hotend I'm currently working on which will actually use a berd system.
I don't have a detailed wiring plan, but aside from the original z-stop, y-stop, and enclosure-heater leads, literally all of the original wiring is gone. So, couldn't give you a plug-and-play conversion plan from the stock wiring.
PanelDue 5 fits the front panel with enlargement of the hole. To keep it out of the enclosure heat, I ran a sheet metal panel behind it and put a fan next to it, so fan pulls in cool air, passes it across the back of the paneldue, then exhausts it back out front through the hole to the left of the panel. The black shroud then directs that air over the blue heatsink, on the back of which is the enclosure-illumination LED board.
Very happy with it. Solid aluminum bed could hit 200C if needed (though currently thermal-fused at 192). Hotend can do 500 (E3D V6 on a Matrix) and enclosure can go to 135 once the berd-air is complete and part-cooling fan gone (then limited by belt ratings).
If you want to PM me I'm happy to talk any details you're interested in.
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thank you for the fotos unfortunately i cant see them only a sign like the german "einfahrt verboten" in grey.
i have started with modifying, what already is working
the LED Sripe, the fans for both SSR and the Mainboard fan. they are connected to 0.out 7-9
the thermistors of bed, chamber and both extruders connected to t0-t3 for the board and the chamber i get the right themperatur values displayed, the extruder thermistors show worng value (75 celsius) maybe a config issue.
currently i am trying to get the bed and the chamber working. my plan is to use 0.out 5 and 6 for that. currently config is not working as expected. while swiching the heater on / off i cant measure any difference on the out port.
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@taxidude
I think I have fixed the photo issue?Have you probed the input coming to the board for the extruder temps? I'm no longer using them, but I do not believe the the original temperature probes were thermistors. Additionally, the step-up/down boards allowing the ribbon cable to the tool end may be doing some transformations. I would put an ohm-meter on the Duet-end leads for these and see if you actually get the expected resistance ranges, as it's possible that those boards are doing something goofy and the stock firmware was compensating.
Edit; I pulled out the old gantry and put a meter on the temperature sensors; 2ohm at room temp. So, some kind of thermocouple, not thermistors.
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@maestro very nice looking work.
someday ill go through mine and clean it up a bit more.
20210326_230625844_iOS.heic 20220118_130542466_iOS.heic 20220114_231353954_iOS.heic 20220113_201749533_iOS.heic
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Hi @Maestro ,
I'm new to this forum, found it while searching info on the f430.
Would you mind sharing information on your build-plate? I've changed the heater and insulated it but have been wondering if going to a metal plate would be the best, long term, route. Printing ULTEM.
Your other mods are really interesting to me. Do you happen to have a bog or other site with more details?
Thank You!
-brs
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I really like the metal bed, but I've not had a lot of experience with other types. So, honestly, I would suggest reading other comparisons on the topic, as it's not F430-specific and I'm not an expert. I like the dead-steady temperatures it achieves, and it heats up plenty quick (1200W Keenovo heater). Downside is it stays hot for a loooong time. Mine is insulated on the bottom with welding blanket material, and if it's heated over 100C it stays hot enough to burn me for probably a solid hour. Ultimately, I prefer the temperature stability over other bed options.
I don't have a build thread or blog on it, but maybe I'll start one here when I get some time, as this thread is quite old and there seems to be some interest.
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@maestro have you considered using a large blower fan or two to cool the bed down?
Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com -
Thanks @maestro for the reply. Once I got looking at the bed a bit more a solution revealed it's self. I had insulated my glas bed as well based upon Keenovo's recommendation. It help considerably but my heater has gone belly-up. The metal bed will be installed when the new heater shows up. Long wait.
In the mean time I decided to go whole-hog and install a Duet3 along with a slice mosquito magna hot end. They arrived today. This gets me back to the forum to beg any tidbits of technical information on the F430. The big one right now is needing the technical specs on the XYZ Stepper motors. Things like max current etc. Does anyone have that info? Thanks in advance.
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@dc42 Not seriously, no. For a blower to survive reliably it'd have to be outside the enclosure, and the added bulk and complexity just doesn't seem worth it. If a print won't pop from the hot bed, I can either practice patience, or point a deskfan at it. I am finishing up the design of a negative-pressure filter system; when done, it might draw through enough air to noticeably accelerate cooling, but probably not much. Either way, I can live with it; I'm not usually in any real hurry, and it's just pure impatience that makes me want to get in there...
BRS, the F430 steppers are typical cheapo 1.8-degree 42HS-series steppers, and with relatively high phase-resistances. I would assume their max currents to be ~1.25amps or less. I'd suggest measuring your phase resistances and then going to find a 42HS spec-sheet and see where you land.
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@Maestro @codfish124 @taxidude
F430 converters, I need your help.
My conversion is done (will post about it later) but one nagging issue. The Y axis motor is noisy. With stealthC configured or both X & Y, X axis is silent. Have you been able to tune the X axis to run quietly? Could you share how you configured it?Thank You!
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You may be able to tune out some noise, but unfortunately the y-stepper noise is primarily a design issue; it's mounted right to the back panel sheetmetal, which acts as a diaphragm to amplify the noise.
If you look at one of my images above, you will see a large black sheet over the back left side of my machine, under the reservoir. That is a 3/16 steel strongback I made to help resolve this issue. Additionally, I made my own y-motor mount that includes a vibration damping mount to try to reduce the vibrations making it into that back panel.
All this helped a ton, but it is still louder than the x.
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@Maestro Hi Maestro, I’m Chris. I came across this thread when booking up information on the F430, I recently purchased one a couple of months ago and started getting neck deep into it, I’ve already got a new main board and stepper drivers, all high temperature stepper motors, insulated the entire chamber and filament chambers, liquid cool every stepper motor, as well as extruders, I’m fascinated with what you’ve done with yours, the electronics I haven’t started on yet. I have the board and a raspberry PI 4B I plan on running klipper with, and I don’t intend on keeping any of the original wiring. Everything is so far off from any new electronics. it’s a futile effort to try to get them to synchronize, I’m just gonna start fresh. I’m fascinated with the electronic site especially of what you’ve done with yours looks like you did a great job, my cooling system is a bit different., I CNC machined 5 mm aluminum housings to attach right to the back of the Nema 17 and they have two M 6 holes that are threaded to dancers to 4 mm Capricorn tubing that leads into 6 mm pneumatic tubing to a large pump, reservoir, and radiator. One loop on the extruders and hot end for steppers and extruders, and one loop on all other steppers. The insulation is adhesive insulation with reflective interior. Basically the same as any high temperature printer with insulation, but I could use some advice on the electrical aspect, I’m very technologically and mechanically inclined, but this is not exactly something I have experience with 3-D printers. I always figure things out, but a little advice would go along way. Appreciate any time you would consider spending talking to me about it.
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@Cj110109 Hello, Chris. As far as electronics setup goes, I don't really think there are any major nuggets I can give you, though I'd be happy to address any specific question. Once you abandon the original Creatbot toolboard abomination, your choices really aren't limited in any way. By which I mean, it no longer matters--electronically--that you are building an F430. As far as firmware and board ability go, you're just building a large, chamber-heated printer, so any resources towards that end will be valid for you. I originally went Duet 2, but very quickly switched to a Duet 3. If you're going the Klipper route, as you mention, there are plenty of resources out there for setup with that. My own experience is with the Duet ecosystem, and that's primarily what you'll find discussion of on these forums. You say you already have a mainboard; I would suggest making a list of all the connections you need, and then going through one by one and learning how to connect them to your board. There is variation out there on mainboard specs; your best bet is probably to find a forum that has a lot of activity relating to yours, because you can't assume that voltage/current tolerances, pull-up/pull-down state, etc. on one board's port will be the same as another's.
In relation to your project on a non-electrical note; I would never discourage someone from a project like this if it's something they just want to do for enjoyment or it's the resource they have. However, I would just warn you; after many chamber temperature cycles between ~95C and ambient over the last several years, the welds in my F430's box frame have cracked in places, and splits are evident through the paint as sheetmetal starts moving around. With certain motions it makes a clicking sound from something moving in the frame itself.
So, it does the job I modified if for; it prints large, good quality polycarbonate prints without warping/delamination. However, it wasn't originally designed for it, and the process seems to be beating it to death slowly. I could fire up the TIG and patch it up, but I'd still be left with a sheetmetal box with limited potential. I'm working on the CAD for a new high-temp machine, and after serving as the bootstrapper starting point for it, this one is going to end up retired.
