Dead PanelDue 7I



  • I have a dead PanelDue 7I. I may have accidentally killed it, though I don't think it should have died from what I did.
    Looking for any confirmation that I did possibly kill it and stop spending more time on it if so.

    Has been working for a about 2 months without issues, using the 4 pin wire.
    It was ordered from Filastruder about 2 months ago.
    When I initially set it up I followed the online guide and flashed firmware up to the latest, so I am familiar with the flashing procedure and Bossa.

    What I did last night to possibly kill it.
    In trying to identify a slight noise coming from the belt mechanics of a core XY printer, I had the printer turned off at the 120V source and moved the head around by hand, X&Y motors. At a pretty good rate of speed, guessing about 100 mm/s.
    This lit up the leds on the board, and I decided to stop. Possibly too late.

    Turning things back on, the panel does a brief flash but will not do much beyond that.

    Verified that the Duet Wifi board is outputting 4.98 volts to the panel.
    Verified that everything else seems to be working, can connect to the printer via web interface and home motors at least.
    Did not try anything beyond that such as heating up hot end or 120V bed.
    Verified that both fuses are good.

    Several different computers and several different usb cables, with and without power from Duet wifi board will not detect the PanelDue plugged up to the usb port. This is including the computer that originally flashed the firmware to it, so it definitely should.

    Have tried the erase button for a few seconds, followed by reset button, I am having no luck.

    Screen stays black , backlight does come on, black screen will do a periodic flash if leaving it powered via the Duet Wifi 4 pin cable.

    Any suggestions ?

    Thank you



  • @MikeD said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    Have tried the erase button for a few seconds, followed by reset button, I am having no luck.

    I'm working from memory here, so take with a grain of salt... I thought you were supposed to hold erase, click reset, wait a few seconds, and then release erase. ???

    Edit: I'm wrong. The procedure on David's blog is very clear:

    Press and hold the Erase button of the PanelDue for at least one second. You can access this button by pressing the end of a straightened-out paper clip through the hole in the enclosure.

    Release the Erase button, then press and release the Reset button. If you have a version 2.0 board then the backlight will turn off.



  • So, to your original question. If properly erased/reset, and proper USB cable, and Windows is happy, it WILL show up as a BOSSA device on USB. This functionality is in a ROM on the processor itself.

    Since you've done this before, we can be reasonably certain about cables and Windows.

    Therefore, I'd say it is dead.



  • I am also fairly certain it is dead, but want to be sure I am not missing out on anything.

    Next question of course would be is this covered under warranty ?
    I have already ordered a replacement, even if I can recover this one somehow I can use it on another project.
    I am a great fan of this product line, but on other printers I can move the head back and forth, and not kill parts of the printer.



  • @MikeD said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    I am a great fan of this product line, but on other printers I can move the head back and forth, and not kill parts of the printer.

    Is generally ill advised; weather or not its a problem depends on protection of the board (don't think you can beat the Duet on that, unsure about the PanelDue) and possibly more relevant, the speed of which you move the motors while connected to the board.

    I'd say if you light up LEDs etc, then you would be better off disconnecting the motors first.



  • @MikeD said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    I am also fairly certain it is dead, but want to be sure I am not missing out on anything.

    Next question of course would be is this covered under warranty ?
    I have already ordered a replacement, even if I can recover this one somehow I can use it on another project.
    I am a great fan of this product line, but on other printers I can move the head back and forth, and not kill parts of the printer.

    I have absolutely no hard facts, gut feel only, but I'd be very, very surprised if moving the motors caused the Panel Failure. At the same time, I am not a big believer in coincidence, so I don't really now what to think.

    None of which helps you with your dead board...



  • Is there a more "official" place for me to ask these questions ?
    Would the next step be to contact Filastruder where I purchased it from ?
    Or sit and wait until someone reads this post ?



  • Filastruder would likely ask you to come here to have any warranty claim evaluated by dc42, T3P3Tony or possibly droftarts(?), so I guess yeah, wait for one of those to do that.


  • Moderator

    @MikeD Sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion. We're just discussing this amongst ourselves. All I can say at the moment is that I've destroyed a RAMPS board in the past, by moving the motors. They effectively act like generators, and the voltage can escape the stepper driver and cause all manner of problems, depending on the voltage (proportional to speed the stepper is moved) produced. I don't know if there is protection in the stepper drivers, or on the Duet, for this.

    The other think is that leaving the PanelDue for a while (eg 24 hours) may make it come back. I'd try it again after a reasonable amount of time, and see if it works. You can replace the PCB, but then it may be the display or backlight that has failed!

    Your PanelDue is within the warranty period, but I'm not sure if this would count as a warranty replacement. We're just discussing that.

    Ian



  • Thank you for the response.
    A lesson has been learned for sure.
    I have read a great deal of the documentation dealing with the Duet and Wifi Board even before I purchased one, I was aware of many things not to do like plug and unplug motors under power, even remember reading the How to destroy your duet 2 article. I never saw anything warning against moving motors plugged in.
    It does seem like that is something many take as a common sense thing, and it will be for me also in the future.
    My only other piece of hardware is a CR10S pro, that seems to be completely immune to backfeed damage, so perhaps stupidly I was not cautious enough.

    Filastruder has already denied warranty, I am not quite so sure how I feel about it. I can agree that my actions may have caused the damage, just not so sure they should have.

    Barring any warranty replacement, is there a repair service offered ?
    If not, any tips for what to look for to replace, single component wise off the board. I am assuming (hoping really) a backfeed voltage spike would damage a single surface mount component such as a diode or capacitor, i have a reflow station and other tools required for that type of repair.

    I realize that it may be hard to diagnose what it is that failed, but lets say if I commit to spending up to half the cost of a new PanelDue dollars and a few hours of work, what would be the first things one should look at replacing ?

    Mike



  • @MikeD said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    I realize that it may be hard to diagnose what it is that failed, but lets say if I commit to spending up to half the cost of a new PanelDue dollars and a few hours of work, what would be the first things one should look at replacing ?

    Mike

    hard to give a good written guide; but as you've already determined you cannot reprogram the board which suggest there is a problem with the atsam mcu. I'd first check the onboard 3.3v regulator, if its okay then replace the mcu.

    having done that you could still have issues with the lcd panel, so not easy to evaluate if worth while.

    edit: cant recall having seen the 7i schematic, but the regular v3 is close enough for the bits above
    https://github.com/dc42/PanelDue/raw/master/PCB/V3.0/PaneDue-3.0-schematic.png


  • Moderator

    That's a tough lesson. Sorry about that. It should be fairly well known that motors are generators when driven in reverse. You saw lights coming on after all. I've seen numerous warnings to not move the motors quickly if you have to move them by hand.

    Perhaps the hint to the failure lies here:
    https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/How_to_destroy_your_Duet_2#Section_Methods_that_are_very_likely_to_write_off_your_Duet

    excessive voltage on the 3.3V rail will back-feed into the 5V rail too, so you will destroy even more chips, and with luck the backlight inverter on your TFT panel too if you have one.

    The article is a bit tongue in cheek.

    At least the board itself is still functional.


  • Moderator

    https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Warnings

    Point #4

    When the stepper motors are connected to the Duet, do not move any parts by hand that make the motors rotate rapidly! For example, if you need to move the print head by hand, or the carriages of a delta printer by hand, do it s-l-o-w-l-y. Likewise, if you need to rotate the extruder gear by hand, do it slowly. Rapid rotation of the stepper drivers will generate enough voltage to power them up in an uncontrolled fashion, and could generate enough to exceed their rated voltage.



  • @Phaedrux said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    The article is a bit tongue in cheek.

    the accompanying youtube video was my first encounter with anything duet3d, (incorrectly?) assumed it was some random nutjob doing a parody ... but I have since been enlightened:)


  • Moderator

    @bearer said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    random nutjob

    Nope, it was a very specific nutjob.



  • Yeah, should have known better, will know better.
    Anyways, moving on ...
    I am not at the board at the moment, but I do remember it has some exposed copper pads that I assume are test points. Any of those for the 3.3V ?
    What would be the easiest way to test for a blown 3.3V regulator ?



  • @MikeD said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    I am not at the board at the moment, but I do remember it has some exposed copper pads that I assume are test points. Any of those for the 3.3V ?
    What would be the easiest way to test for a blown 3.3V regulator ?

    not sure about the test points as I haven't seen the schematic for the board.

    measure resistance across input and outputs (without power applied), feel if it gets hot, measure the output voltage, look at the output with a scope, in increasing order of ease/reliability of the test.


  • Moderator

    @MikeD this from @T3P3Tony :

    It's possible to generate quite high voltages and backfeed them if the motors are spin manually. They become generators and the voltage is related to the rotation speed. Often this is a particular issue where gearing is involved as moving the axis s
    Relatively slowly can lead to the motors spinning rapidly.

    Now saying that does not directly releate to PanelDue damage unless the generated voltage caused the 5v regulator to fail shorted.

    So check the Duet too.

    Ian



  • Verified that the Duet Wifi board is outputting 4.98 volts to the panel.

    he did ☝



  • If you get to the point you can make no further progress with the dead Panel assembly, there are several of us that have volunteered to look at repairs, WITH NO GUARANTEE beyond that we will send your board back worse off than we received it...! All kidding aside, we can at least try.

    If you decide to pursue that, search for "repair" and you'll find a thread with a couple of people. I am one, I'm in North Texas USA from a shipping cost perspective. I am an amateur/hobbyist... but I do have hot air rework, O-Scopes, soldering reflow ovens (settable to certified profiles, even), etc, etc.

    Let us know...



  • @Danal

    I am definitely interested.
    Short of waiting for the fairy to make it all better I am out of recourses. I have been able to verify that at least one regulator is supplying 3.3 volts, there is another one furthers stepping it down to 1.something. But that's about it.



  • @MikeD said in Dead PanelDue 7I:

    I have been able to verify that at least one regulator is supplying 3.3 volts, there is another one furthers stepping it down to 1.something. But that's about it.

    The micocontroller that is refusing to give you a serial port only needs 3.3v. 1.8v would be for the lcd controller but would need a working microcontroller to evaluate it if also needs fixing.



  • @bearer

    Yeah, based on not much more than a gut feeling I think it is going to be one of the micro controllers on the board.


  • administrators

    If the PanelDue won't show up as the Bossa port after you have done all the usual things, then it sounds that either the ATSAM4S4B processor has failed, or the USB port isn't making contact, or there is no +3.3V supply to the ATSAM processor.

    The 3.3V supply comes from U4. There should be +3.3V on the end of CA9 closest to the ATSAM processor UA1. The case of the SD card socket can be used as ground when measuring this. There should be 1.2V on LA2. The ATSAM should not be getting hot.

    The flashing from the display sounds odd, almost as though the backlight inverter has failed or there is a poor power contact. Are you sure that the backlight is on continuously? Even with the screen dark, I can see it at the edge of the display where the Kapton cables come out of it.



  • I suppose I could try a few more different cables, have been using the one that came with the Duet Wifi boards.
    Not really sure how to fully eliminate the USB port not making contact possibility. Plugging usb in does turn on the backlight, so at least GND, and 5V are getting through.

    I will verify again the correct voltages later today. I was able to measure +3.3V yesterday in the spot I think you care referring to.

    Did also measure 1.X voltage on a regulator, I forgot the exact number, will confirm later also.

    Perhaps I described flashing incorrectly:
    The backlight is on, always on, cant make it go off even with pressing erase for 1 second followed by reset.
    What does, or did initially flash, is the screen itself. Every so often, I would say a 40 second average you would get a quick blip of the screen, kind of like the initial very short white illumination I normally get when powering on, just before the logo displays. Almost as if periodically the unit is trying to boot.

    Ironically, I had a similar situation when I initially purchased the screen, before there were any motors or much else hooked up to it. When i was just familiarizing myself with the Duet Wifi and PanelDue I had just those two hooked together.
    I was using the 10 pin ribbon cable at the time. Initially I had it hooked to the correct port via the ribbon cable, it came on and life was great.
    Throughout the build process at one point I powered on an the screen did not boot. I believe that I had the 10 pin ribbon cable in the wrong port. Powered down, switched to the right port, and I think all was back to normal. Hard to remember, but what I do know is that it did not always boot the screen after that. Sometimes I had to boot a number of times, and I think I am correct in saying that sometimes the screen would boot after being powered for a while. Either way, that is when I initially got familiar with the process of flashing the firmware, bossa etc.
    Was able to follow the guides, usb port came up at that time just as it should have, flashed without issue, booted without issue, switched over to 4 pin wire only since ribbon wasn't long enough to reach my desired location.
    I put it in its case, and haven't touched it since. Have had no issues for the last 2 months, probably powered down and booted up 30 times since then.
    About 2 weeks ago I did have an issue with the screen, or entire system rather going idle during a print. Screen would show IDLE on the corner while machine was still printing.
    I originally thought it was on long prints, what would happen is that the screen would essentially stop getting new information, layer number would stop updating, etc.
    The machine continued on, and the prints finished as expected. I do not know if pressing the stop button on the screen would have done anything at this point.
    During this time the web interface could not connect either, I believe wifi was going idle.
    Reboot would fix everything.
    At the same time I was also having issues with Fusion 360 taking forever to launch, so I think all of it was really an issue caused by my router. Once I powered cycled it all was better, no more disconnection issues.
    Don't know if much of that is helpful or not.
    I was surprised that even if it is due to the router and wifi disconnecting that the screen would stop getting information and go idle.
    So maybe there were some underlying issues, perhaps from once plugging the 10 pin ribbon into the wrong port.
    Once i get my new screen I will be curious to see what happens if I turn off wifi router mid print.

    Mike


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