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Heater temperature overshoot with new algorithm 3.2

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heaters overshoot tuning undershoot
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  • undefined
    appjaws
    last edited by 29 Nov 2020, 16:32

    thanks @deckingman @dc42
    Tried that but it didn't affect the overshoot or the time it takes to settle.
    I did a test with the old M307 and I had overshoot.
    It appears that I didn't notice the overshoot before.

    Recently I installed a BigTreeTech hotend, so I am wondering what the spec of the thermistor is, how do I find out?
    Or could it be something else?

    appjaws - Core XYUV Duet Ethernet Duex5
    firmware 3.5.0-rc.4 Web Interface 3.5.0-rc.4
    Ormerod 1-converted to laser engraver, Duet wifi
    OpenSCAD version 2024.03.18
    Simplify3D 5.1.2

    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 29 Nov 2020, 16:44 Reply Quote 0
    • undefined
      deckingman @appjaws
      last edited by deckingman 29 Nov 2020, 16:44

      @appjaws Is it one of those 2 in 1 out jobbies? I had a quick look and noticed that they claim it's good for up to 350 deg C. That being the case, maybe it's just got a powerful heater. The hot end block doesn't look to be overly large so if they decided simply to bung a higher wattage heater in it, then it might just be too powerful for amount of aluminium surrounding it. That would certainly might lead to overshoot. Do you happen to have a (say) 30watt heater that you could fit?

      Ian
      https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
      https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • undefined
        appjaws
        last edited by 29 Nov 2020, 17:28

        @deckingman No its a single BigTreeTech 1 to 1, although I do have a 1 in 3 out version which I haven't tried yet.

        I don't think I have a 30W heater but I do have 40W ones I could try.

        Would tuning using a lower P value say 0.8 instead of 1, in M303 and M307 help do you think?

        appjaws - Core XYUV Duet Ethernet Duex5
        firmware 3.5.0-rc.4 Web Interface 3.5.0-rc.4
        Ormerod 1-converted to laser engraver, Duet wifi
        OpenSCAD version 2024.03.18
        Simplify3D 5.1.2

        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 29 Nov 2020, 19:13 Reply Quote 0
        • undefined
          deckingman @appjaws
          last edited by 29 Nov 2020, 19:13

          @appjaws said in Heater temperature overshoot with new algorithm 3.2:

          Would tuning using a lower P value say 0.8 instead of 1, in M303 and M307 help do you think?

          Yes, I would have thought that should help.

          Ian
          https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
          https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • undefined
            dc42 administrators
            last edited by 29 Nov 2020, 22:14

            @appjaws

            1. Please post your complete config.g and config-override.g files.

            2. What was the exact command that you user to tune the heater?

            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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            • undefined
              appjaws
              last edited by 30 Nov 2020, 12:32

              @dc42 I do not use config-override, the tuning command was M303 H1 P1 S205

              config.g:-

              ; CoreXYUV config file for Duet firmware 3

              ; Network
              M550 P"appjawsCoreXY" ; Machine name (can be anything you like)
              M551 P"reprap" ; Machine password (used for FTP connections)
              M552 S1 P192.168.1.69 ; IP address and Turn network on
              M554 P192.168.1.1 ; Gateway
              M553 P255.255.255.0 ; Netmask

              ; Machine configuration
              M111 S0 ; Debugging off
              G21 ; Work in millimetres
              G90 ; Send absolute coordinates...
              M83 ; Set relative extruder moves
              M555 P2 ; Set firmware compatibility to Marlin
              M669 K8 ; set CoreXYUV mode
              M564 H0 ; allow axis movement before homing

              ;Drives
              ;M584 X0:3 Y1:4 Z7:8:9 U10 V11 E2:5:6:10:11 ; Assign motors to axes
              ;M584 X0:3 Y1:4 Z7:8:9 U10 V11 E2:5:6 ; Assign motors to axes
              M584 X0 Y1 U3 V4 Z7:8:9 U10 V11 E2:5:6 ; Assign motors to axes
              M569 P0 S1 ; Drive 0 goes forwards X motor
              M569 P1 S1 ; Drive 1 goes backwards Y motor
              M569 P2 S0 ; Drive 2 goes backwards E1 extruder
              M569 P3 S1 ; Drive 3 goes forwards U motor
              M569 P4 S1 ; Drive 4 goes backwards V motor
              M569 P5 S0 ; Drive 5 goes backwards E2 extruder
              M569 P6 S0 ; Drive 6 goes backwards E3 extruder
              M569 P7 S1 ; Drive 7 goes forwards Z1 motor left
              M569 P8 S1 ; Drive 8 goes forwards Z2 motor rear
              M569 P9 S1 ; Drive 9 goes forwards Z3 motor right
              ;M569 P10 S0 T4 ; Drive 10 goes backwards E4 extruder
              ;M569 P11 S0 T4 ; Drive 11 goes backwards E5 extrude

              ;Endstops
              M574 X1 S1 P"xstop" ; configure active-high endstop for low end on X via pin xstop
              M574 Y1 S1 P"ystop" ; configure active-high endstop for low end on Y via pin ystop
              M574 U1 S1 P"e0stop" ; configure active-high endstop for low end on U via pin ustop
              M574 V1 S1 P"e1stop" ; configure active-high endstop for low end on V via pin vstop
              M574 Z1 S1 P"zstop" ; configure Z-probe endstop for low end on Z

              M581 P"zstop" T2 R0 ; Set Z stop as fail safe for Z zeroing and run /sys/trigger2.g
              M671 X-42:150:344 Y96:337:101 S3 ; Lead screw positions
              M350 X16 Y16 U16 V16 Z16 E16 I1 ; Set XYUVZE 16 micro stepping with interpolation
              M92 X80 Y80 U80 V80 Z3200 E415:415 ; Set axis steps/mm (XYUVZE=16)
              M566 X1500 Y1500 U1500 V1500 Z30 E300 ; Maximum jerk speeds mm/minute
              M203 X10000 Y10000 U10000 V10000 Z100 E3000 ; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
              M201 X2000 Y2000 U2000 V2000 Z30 E1000 ; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
              M906 X1100 Y1100 U1100 V1100 Z1000 E1000 ; Set motor currents (mA)

              ;axis limits
              M208 X350 Y327 U350 V327 Z240 ; set axis maxima (adjust to suit your machine)
              M208 X0 Y0 U0 V0 Z0 S1 ; set axis minima (adjust so X=0 and Y=0 the edges of the bed)

              ; Thermistors and heaters
              M308 S0 P"bed_temp" Y"thermistor" T100000 B3950 H3 ; configure sensor 0 as thermistor on pin bedtemp
              M950 H0 C"bed_heat" T0 ; create bed heater output on bedheat and map it to sensor 0
              M143 H0 S85 ; set temperature limit for heater 0 to 70C
              M307 H0 R0.326 C233.6 D3.57 S1.00 V24.5 ; RRF3.2 Auto tune PID for bed heater

              M308 S1 P"e0_temp" Y"thermistor" B4388 H25 ; configure sensor 1 as thermistor on pin e0temp
              M950 H1 C"e0_heat" T1 ; create nozzle heater output on e0heat and map it to sensor 1
              M140 H0
              M143 H1 S240 ; set temperature limit for heater 1 to 230C
              ;M307 H1 A273.7 C130.4 D6.0 S1.00 V24.6 B0 ; Auto tune PID for extruder 0 (BigTreeTech single) overshoot 8.1
              M307 H1 R3.486 C148.6 D6.0 S1.00 V24.6 ; RRF3.2 Auto tune PID for extruder 0 (BigTreeTech single)

              M308 S10 Y"mcu-temp" A"CPU" ; CPU temp sensor
              M308 S11 Y"drivers" A"Duet_drv" ; drivers temp sensor

              ; Tool definition********** Single nozzle settings **********
              M563 P0 D0 H1 F0 ; Define tool 0
              G10 P0 S0 R0 ; Set tool 0 operating and standby temperatures

              ; Fan settings
              M950 F0 C"Fan0" Q500 ; create fan 0 on pin fan0 and set its frequency
              M106 P0 H-1 C"Cooling" ; set Tool fan. Thermostatic control is off
              M950 F1 C"Fan1" Q500 ; create Extruder on pin fan1 and set its frequency
              M106 P1 H1 T45 C"Extruder" ; set Extruder Fan. Thermostatic control is turned on
              M950 F2 C"Fan2" Q500 ; create System fan on pin fan2 and set its frequency
              M106 P2 H10:11 T35:50 L45 C"System" ; set System fan. Thermostatic electronics cooling

              ; LED Lighting
              M950 F3 C"duex.fan3" Q500 ; create fan 3 on pin duex.fan3 and set its frequency for LED Red
              M106 P3 C"RGB Red" ; set RGB Red PWM
              M950 F4 C"duex.fan4" Q500 ; create fan 4 on pin duex.fan4 and set its frequency for LED Green
              M106 P4 C"RGB Green" ; set RGB Green PWM
              M950 F5 C"duex.fan5" Q500 ; create fan 5 on pin duex.fan5 and set its frequency for LED Blue
              M106 P5 C"RGB Blue" ; set RGB Blue PWM

              ; Custom settings
              ; Manual bed levelling assistant
              ;M671 X-8:308:308:-8 Y-8:-8:212:212 P0.1 ; rear (-8,-8)(308,-8), front(308,212)(-8,212), pitch 0.05mm
              M557 X20:280 Y20:190 S170 ; define mesh grid
              ;M572 D1 S0.05 ; pressure advance D= Extruder, S= advance amount 0.1 - 0.2
              M558 P1 C"zprobe.in+zprobe.mod" H5 F120 T6000 ; set Z probe type to unmodulated and dive height + speeds
              G31 P500 X-30 Y8 Z0.48 ; set Z probe trigger value, offset and trigger height-BigTreeTech-single
              M556 S100 X-0.65 Y-0.0 Z-0.0 ; axis compensation
              T0 ; select first hot end

              ; ********** Diamond nozzle settings **********
              ;M201 X1000 Y1000 U1000 V1000 Z30 E2000:E2000:E2000 ; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
              ;M203 X15000 Y15000 U15000 V15000 Z200 E4000:4000:4000 ; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
              ;M566 X1000 Y1000 U1000 V1000 Z30 E100💯100 ; Maximum jerk speeds mm/minute
              ;M572 D1:D2:D3 S0.03 ; pressure advance Dnnn Extruder num,Snnn advance amount(sec) 0.1 - 0.2
              ;M563 P0 D0 H1 ; Define tool 0 extruder 0
              ;M563 P1 D1 H1 ; Define tool 1 extruder 1
              ;M563 P2 D2 H1 ; Define tool 2 extruder 2
              ;M563 P0 D0:1:2 H1 ; Define tool 0 extruder 0
              ;M563 P1 D0:1:2 H1 ; Define tool 1 extruder 1
              ;M563 P2 D0:1:2 H1 ; Define tool 2 extruder 2
              ;M567 P0 E1.0:0.0:0.0 ; single colour - extruder 0
              ;M567 P1 E0.0:1.0:0.0 ; single colour - extruder 1
              ;M567 P2 E0.0:0.0:1.0 ; single colour - extruder 2
              ;M92 E430:430:430 ; Set extruder steps/mm (multiple nozzles)
              ;M568 P0 S1 ; turn on mixing Tool 0
              ;M568 P1 S1 ; turn on mixing Tool 0
              ;M568 P2 S1 ; turn on mixing Tool 0
              ;M207 S5.0 F2400 ; retract all extruders

              ; Z probe diamond hot end
              ;M558 P3 X0 Y0 Z1 ; Analog Z probe, also used for homing the Z axis
              ;G31 X-20 Y10 Z0.9 P500 ; Set the probe height and threshold;

              appjaws - Core XYUV Duet Ethernet Duex5
              firmware 3.5.0-rc.4 Web Interface 3.5.0-rc.4
              Ormerod 1-converted to laser engraver, Duet wifi
              OpenSCAD version 2024.03.18
              Simplify3D 5.1.2

              undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Nov 2020, 13:01 Reply Quote 0
              • undefined
                appjaws
                last edited by 30 Nov 2020, 12:48

                Just done anther tuning using P0.8
                M307 H1 R3.409 C168.6 D10.80 S0.80 V24.6

                appjaws - Core XYUV Duet Ethernet Duex5
                firmware 3.5.0-rc.4 Web Interface 3.5.0-rc.4
                Ormerod 1-converted to laser engraver, Duet wifi
                OpenSCAD version 2024.03.18
                Simplify3D 5.1.2

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                • undefined
                  dc42 administrators @appjaws
                  last edited by 30 Nov 2020, 13:01

                  @appjaws said in Heater temperature overshoot with new algorithm 3.2:

                  @dc42 I do not use config-override, the tuning command was M303 H1 P1 S205

                  Please tune using M303 T0 S205 instead so that the tuning takes account of the print cooling fan.

                  Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                  Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                  http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • undefined
                    appjaws
                    last edited by 1 Dec 2020, 09:37

                    @dc42 Thank you for the reply, this is the result
                    M307 H1 R3.525 C171.7:136.5 D10.05 S0.70 V24.6 ;Auto tune with M303 T0 S205

                    This is a lot better so I now have an overshoot of 5.8 but it still takes a long time to settle.
                    I could cope with that by carrying on manually waiting to start a print.

                    Is there a parameter that I could use to ascertain when the temperature is settled?

                    appjaws - Core XYUV Duet Ethernet Duex5
                    firmware 3.5.0-rc.4 Web Interface 3.5.0-rc.4
                    Ormerod 1-converted to laser engraver, Duet wifi
                    OpenSCAD version 2024.03.18
                    Simplify3D 5.1.2

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                    • undefined
                      dc42 administrators
                      last edited by dc42 12 Feb 2020, 13:39 1 Dec 2020, 12:55

                      I seem to remember that @deckingman had trouble with the Diamond hot end heater being over-powered too.

                      You could try increasing the R parameter a little (e.g. by 10%), or increasing D by about 30%.

                      You can use conditional GCode to compare the actual temperature with the target temperature.

                      Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                      Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                      http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                      undefined 1 Reply Last reply 1 Dec 2020, 13:03 Reply Quote 0
                      • undefined
                        deckingman @dc42
                        last edited by deckingman 12 Jan 2020, 13:03 1 Dec 2020, 13:03

                        @dc42 said in Heater temperature overshoot with new algorithm 3.2:

                        I seem to remember that @deckingman has trouble with the Diamond hot end heater being over-powered too.

                        That was certainly the case with the 5 colour Diamond which by default, comes with an 80 Watt heater. I fixed that by changing to a more conventional 40 watt heater - hence my recommendation to @appjaws that he try a smaller heater - maybe 30 watt or less.

                        As an aside. I suspect the reason why RepRap.me thought that an 80 watt heater was a good idea is because of the heat creep issue that the 5 colour has. I guess the 80 watt heater melted everything - including the the filament that is in what should be the cold side of the heat breaks 🙂
                        (I found that using a bigger heat sink fan worked somewhat better 🙂 ).

                        Ian
                        https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                        https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

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                        • undefined
                          appjaws
                          last edited by 2 Dec 2020, 13:36

                          @dc42 thankyou, I tried the changes for R and D but it made little difference.

                          Eventually the temperature does stabilise so I need to have a check prior to the print start

                          With my limited skills I have tried to have a condition to check the heat.heaters[1].current
                          but I end up in a loop or it is ignored.

                          Could you suggest a suitable test please

                          appjaws - Core XYUV Duet Ethernet Duex5
                          firmware 3.5.0-rc.4 Web Interface 3.5.0-rc.4
                          Ormerod 1-converted to laser engraver, Duet wifi
                          OpenSCAD version 2024.03.18
                          Simplify3D 5.1.2

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