Dyze extruder



  • Hi,
    I plan to buy an extruder / hotend kit for the corexy that i'm currently bulding

    I found that canadian shop that make a kit that seems high quality
    ttps://dyzedesign.com/shop/kit/kit-dyzend-x-dyzextruder-gt-1-75mm/

    Anyone have that extruder ? if yes, how it's performing ?

    they use a thermistor that can handle temperature up to 500 c , since the thermistor isn't standard. Is that easy to adapt the reprap firmware configuration to it ?

    Thanks



  • My personal opinion is that as far as I can make out, they use 5.6:1 gearing which, coupled with a 0.9deg stepper won't allow fast enough retraction. I also don't like the fact that the tension is a fixed spring and can't be adjusted.


  • administrators

    Whether the gear ratio and 0.9deg motor are appropriate or not depends on the radius of the pinch rollers or hobbed shaft - which I didn't find on the web page. The steps/mm would let us back-calculate it, but I can't find that on the web page either.

    I am in discussion with Dyze about how to configure RRF for their thermistor. I don't see any problem if you want to use typical printing temperatures in the range 190 to 250C, you would just enter the R25 and B values as usual. However, if you want to go to the much higher temperatures supported by the Dyze thermistor and hot end, then the B-value equation used by RRF will break down and we will need to use something better.

    Personally, if I wanted to cover a large temperature range, I would use a thermocouple or RTD sensor. Both provide good resolution (0.03125C for the RTD daughterboard and 0.25C for the thermocouple daughterboard), and good absolute accuracy (about 1C for the RTD and 2C for the thermocouple).



  • I found the steps/mm in their documentation.
    at 1/16 micro stepping it's 645 for the GT extruder and it's 250 for the other model which isn't geared I think.

    For now on my prusa I3 i'm printing mostly abs and petg, i'm in bowden with a greg extruder, it's working well but I would go back in direct drive on the new printer and eventually I would print more robust material to make a drone frame and experimentations.
    Added to that i'm Canadian and that shop is Canadian too, I just want to encourages them by buying locally 🙂 but I'll not change my fantastic duet wifi for something else to have that thermistor fully supported

    Eventually do you think it will be fully supported David or you don't know yet ?

    microsteps:
    https://dyzedesign.com/support/dyzextruder-technical-support/



  • Since beta being the only means of thermistor configuration provides a very narrow range of accurate temperature measurement, wouldn't adopting the Steinhart Hart algorithm for calculating thermistor temperatures similar to Smoothieware help this situation?

    Dieter


  • administrators

    Yes, using more Steinhart-Hart coefficients would allow more accurate modelling over a wider temperature range. I'll add it to the wishlist.



  • @bloood3d:

    I found the steps/mm in their documentation.
    at 1/16 micro stepping it's 645 for the GT extruder and it's 250 for the other model which isn't geared I think.

    For now on my prusa I3 i'm printing mostly abs and petg, i'm in bowden with a greg extruder, it's working well but I would go back in direct drive on the new printer and eventually I would print more robust material to make a drone frame and experimentations.
    Added to that i'm Canadian and that shop is Canadian too, I just want to encourages them by buying locally 🙂 but I'll not change my fantastic duet wifi for something else to have that thermistor fully supported

    Eventually do you think it will be fully supported David or you don't know yet ?

    microsteps:
    https://dyzedesign.com/support/dyzextruder-technical-support/

    Yes, IMO 645 is a bit on the high side, so you might be a bit limited for fast retraction. The E3D Titan for example which has 3:1 gearing is 417 @16X microstepping. On the other hand, it looks like it's well made and robust and I think the perfect extruder has yet to be made. Each has there own plus points and minus points. If you think you are likely to need to go up to around 500 degC then I guess it would be a good choice. You mentioned that you might go back to direct drive, in which case you might want to check out the weight of the Dyze. Being all aluminium I suspect it might be a bit on the heavy side but couldn't see any weight specs on their site.


  • administrators

    If the 645 steps/mm quoted is for a 0.9deg/step motor @16x microstepping, then it isn't too high at all. If it is for a 1.8deg/step motor with 16x microstepping, then it would be OK if the stepper motor is a fairly short one with low rotor inertia.



  • Fast retraction becomes of little concern if you are not using a bowden setup. I have a nema 11 coupled to a modified ezstruder, running 468 steps/mm, and I only need 5mm/s retraction speed at 0.4mm distance to get nearly perfect retraction. As has been said, the perfect extruder hasn't been found, so there is a lot of experimenting left to do. My setup would be abysmal for high-volume, low resolution prints, so, likely, there is no perfect extruder.



  • I looked into this extruder/hot end setup and from what I gather, their reasoning for the 500C thermistor is not so much that you can get up to 500C with it, it's more that it has better resolution in the 200's C range. The website is hard to link directly to a specific part, but if you go here:
    https://dyzedesign.com/support/
    then go to the "DyzEnd - FAQ" section below and click on the item number 2 "How accurate is the temperature thermistor?", they have a pretty compelling reason that their thermistor is better. It has high resolution in the ~180C to ~280C range, which is exactly where we want to heat a hot end. The resolution at room temperature is bad, but that doesn't really matter much to us.

    Curious what dc42 has to say about this after looking into their "special" thermistor. It actually sounds pretty cool.



  • Hi Guys!

    I have designed this extruder and I'd like to take some time with you and maybe answer some questions you've asked here!

    The main problem with using the beta value for our high temperature is lost of accuracy. The most precise option would be to use a RT table or the Steinhart-Hart coefficients. With the beta value, for example, the hotend will show 280°C but in actual life the exact temperature would be 275°C. However, the resolution and stability will be excellent. The thermistor is very sensitive and will detect a very tiny variation in temperature, less than 0.2°C at this temperature with the Duet 12 bits ADC. It is plenty for any 3D printing application.

    The stepper is not a 0.9°. Our direct drive extruder, the DyzeXtruder used this type of motor, but not the DyzeXtruder GT. The motor is a very light motor (26mm thick), low inertia and low inductance. You can retract fast with high acceleration. The extruder works great with retraction speed at 30 mm/s using 16 µsteps.

    We decided to used a fixed spring because we wanted to get the most stable and consistent extrusion flow. Being able to adjust it might sound great, but after much testing, we found out that the pressure applied on a filament will directly influence the steps per mm. With more pressure on the filament, the teeth will go deeper and the effective pitch diameter will be reduced. Also, for some application, it will greatly reduce the output torque because the motor will be mostly fighting plastic deformation. Changing spring setting to another, for example when you change filament, you might adjust it differently and ends up with a different flow from the first filament. For people who want to achieve great tolerances and consistency, it can be problematic.
    Also, we tested two powerful extruders for comparison with adjustable spring tension and filament lever. We got the least filament slipping with the maximum spring tension. However, both levers have become unusable with this configuration.
    This is why we decided to get a fixed spring tension. The filament lever always works, you always get the same flow and you don't need to worry about an other variable when switching filaments.

    The extruder is very light, about 275g. Our previous motor, a NEMA17 x 40mm, weighted about 280g alone. Pretty impressive for an extruder that is twice more powerful!

    Don't hesitate if you have any other questions I may answer!


  • administrators

    @Toddimus:

    I looked into this extruder/hot end setup and from what I gather, their reasoning for the 500C thermistor is not so much that you can get up to 500C with it, it's more that it has better resolution in the 200's C range. The website is hard to link directly to a specific part, but if you go here:
    https://dyzedesign.com/support/
    then go to the "DyzEnd - FAQ" section below and click on the item number 2 "How accurate is the temperature thermistor?", they have a pretty compelling reason that their thermistor is better. It has high resolution in the ~180C to ~280C range, which is exactly where we want to heat a hot end. The resolution at room temperature is bad, but that doesn't really matter much to us.

    Curious what dc42 has to say about this after looking into their "special" thermistor. It actually sounds pretty cool.

    The resolution of a thermistor/ADC combination is greatest when the thermistor resistance is about the same as the series resistor. For a typical 100K thermistor and 4.7K series resistor, this is at around 103C. At 220C the resistance is about 300 ohms, so resolution is degraded. A 10-bit ADC such as found on most 8-bit electronics has a resolution of about 1C @ 220C. At 250C the resolution worsens to about 1.8C. So in a system with a 10-bit ADC, the Dyze thermistor does offer significantly improved resolution at these higher temperatures.

    However, the Duet series uses a 12-bit ADC + 1-bit oversampling. Even if we ignore the oversampling, that means we have 0.25C resolution @ 220C, and 0.45C resolution @ 250C.

    For comparison, the thermistor daughter board for the Duet WiFi provides a resolution of 0.25C over the entire temperature range. The PT100 daughter board provides a resolution of around 0.03125C at low temperatures, and only slightly less resolution at high temperatures.

    EDIT: corrected the thermistor resolution figures (I was reading the wrong spreadsheet column).


  • administrators

    @pcarrier:

    Hi Guys!
    The main problem with using the beta value for our high temperature is lost of accuracy. The most precise option would be to use a RT table or the Steinhart-Hart coefficients. With the beta value, for example, the hotend will show 280°C but in actual life the exact temperature would be 275°C.

    As I understand it, the thermistor B value is quoted at 200C for your thermistor. I normally compute a B value @ 220C from the R-T table, then that gives reasonable accuracy over the temperature range of 190-250C that most people use. We'd need to use more Steinhart-Hart coefficients than just B if accuracy is needed over a wider range.

    There is a risk that the high R25 value of your thermistor makes it sensitive to ADC offset error at low temperatures. This could lead to false "thermistor disconnected" detection at low temperatures. I think this is unlikely to be a problem with the Duet WiFi because of its automatic ADC calibration, however it could be a problem with the wired Duets. The original Duet 0.6 boards used 1K thermistor series resistors, precisely to improve resolution over the important temperature range. Unfortunately, because of variations in the ADC offset error of the microcontrollers, a minority of users found they had to pre-heat the hot end with a hair dryer to clear the "thermistor disconnected fault, especially during the winter. So the resistors were changed to 4.7K (which is what most other 3D printer controllers use) after a few months.



  • I don't own a DyzeXtruder, but I do own a Dyzend hotend. I must say It's fantastic. Performance of their thermistor has been great except for room temperature which is easily corrected by adding a slight inhibition delay for the "disconnected thermistor" function in Marlin. I really hope to make it functional on the Duet Wifi. The hotend comes with hard precision machined nozzle which has given me excellent prints so far.



  • @pcarrier:

    Hi Guys!

    I have designed this extruder and I'd like to take some time with you and maybe answer some questions you've asked here!

    The main problem with using the beta value for our high temperature is lost of accuracy. The most precise option would be to use a RT table or the Steinhart-Hart coefficients. With the beta value, for example, the hotend will show 280°C but in actual life the exact temperature would be 275°C. However, the resolution and stability will be excellent. The thermistor is very sensitive and will detect a very tiny variation in temperature, less than 0.2°C at this temperature with the Duet 12 bits ADC. It is plenty for any 3D printing application.

    The stepper is not a 0.9°. Our direct drive extruder, the DyzeXtruder used this type of motor, but not the DyzeXtruder GT. The motor is a very light motor (26mm thick), low inertia and low inductance. You can retract fast with high acceleration. The extruder works great with retraction speed at 30 mm/s using 16 µsteps.

    We decided to used a fixed spring because we wanted to get the most stable and consistent extrusion flow. Being able to adjust it might sound great, but after much testing, we found out that the pressure applied on a filament will directly influence the steps per mm. With more pressure on the filament, the teeth will go deeper and the effective pitch diameter will be reduced. Also, for some application, it will greatly reduce the output torque because the motor will be mostly fighting plastic deformation. Changing spring setting to another, for example when you change filament, you might adjust it differently and ends up with a different flow from the first filament. For people who want to achieve great tolerances and consistency, it can be problematic.
    Also, we tested two powerful extruders for comparison with adjustable spring tension and filament lever. We got the least filament slipping with the maximum spring tension. However, both levers have become unusable with this configuration.
    This is why we decided to get a fixed spring tension. The filament lever always works, you always get the same flow and you don't need to worry about an other variable when switching filaments.

    The extruder is very light, about 275g. Our previous motor, a NEMA17 x 40mm, weighted about 280g alone. Pretty impressive for an extruder that is twice more powerful!

    Don't hesitate if you have any other questions I may answer!

    That's all good stuff. Thanks for the clarification. You have allayed any concerns I may have had.



  • @dcaron:

    I don't own a DyzeXtruder, but I do own a Dyzend hotend. I must say It's fantastic. Performance of their thermistor has been great except for room temperature which is easily corrected by adding a slight inhibition delay for the "disconnected thermistor" function in Marlin. I really hope to make it functional on the Duet Wifi. The hotend comes with hard precision machined nozzle which has given me excellent prints so far.

    ?I have one as well and echo the thoughts…. I did go with the 300c thermistor though..... I might on the next order get in a 500c part to test out with the wifi,
    😞 /I need to order some more heartbreaks as I destroyed another one with a head crash... My fault and no reflection on the hot end

    If money works out might order in the new extruder as well and try it as a direct drive on my delta


  • administrators

    I have just committed RRF version 1.17-dev1 on github. It includes changes to better support the Dyze thermistor, although I don't yet have one for testing with. See https://github.com/dc42/RepRapFirmware/blob/dev/WHATS_NEW for more details. Caution: I do minimal testing on dev builds.



  • @Toddimus:

    they have a pretty compelling reason that their thermistor is better. It has high resolution in the ~180C to ~280C range, which is exactly where we want to heat a hot end. The resolution at room temperature is bad, but that doesn't really matter much to us.

    We actually do care about room temperature measurements. (I say this having calibrated my hot end thermistor to read about five degrees high at room temperature because that makes it better around 200 C.) The actual values are not very important, but reliable detection of heater faults is essential for fire prevention. If you have an apparent open condition at room temperature, the business of detecting whether the hot end temperature is rising by the right amount becomes more challenging. As long as the firmware can reliably detect when the thermistor has fallen off the hot end partially or completely it's not a problem, but if users get frustrated with spurious heater faults and use unsafe settings a fire risk can arise. This seems like a pretty important design criterion for a hot end - does it present an increased risk of setting your printer on fire if something goes wrong?

    It's not clear to me that thermistor precision is the limiting factor in hot end temperature management. Certainly it isn't on mine, where my thermistor doesn't fit into the proper place on the E3D heater block so it's stuck in place with thermal goop. Making sure that the temperature-measuring device is measuring the temperature of the plastic being extruded is a key concern, particularly when extruding rapidly so that fresh cold filament is coming into the melt zone. The thermal conductivity between the heater, the melt zone, the nozzle, and the temperature sensor matters a lot here, as do the thermal masses of the various parts and the heat flux through the heat break. I'm sure Dyze has done a good job of all this, but I suspect that even in good hot ends these issues are what limits how well we can control the temperature of our extruded plastic.

    I'd also point out that the time constant inferred by the Duet temperature calibration process tells us something about our hot ends - precision temperature control in the face of environmental insults (cooling fans, fresh cold filament, retraction) will work much better if that time constant is shorter, so that the PID loop can respond rapidly to changes. Simply changing the PID numbers won't help; the issue is how long the thermistor takes to notice changes in plastic temperature, which has to do with thermal mass and conductivity.


  • administrators

    @peridot:

    …I say this having calibrated my hot end thermistor to read about five degrees high at room temperature because that makes it better around 200 C...

    I don't know why you found that necessary, but if you measured the actual temperature with a thermocouple inserted into the hot end melt zone then it may mean the thermistor temperature is not quite the same as the melt zone temperature.

    The B value of 4388 that I suggest for the E3D thermistor is aimed at giving the most accurate readings at 25C and 220C. The latest 1.17 dev build of RRF supports the Steinhart-Hart C coefficient for more accurate measurement. Without it, the temperature readings at 120C and 290C are less than 3C out.



  • @dc42:

    @peridot:

    …I say this having calibrated my hot end thermistor to read about five degrees high at room temperature because that makes it better around 200 C...

    I don't know why you found that necessary, but if you measured the actual temperature with a thermocouple inserted into the hot end melt zone then it may mean the thermistor temperature is not quite the same as the melt zone temperature.

    The B value of 4388 that I suggest for the E3D thermistor is aimed at giving the most accurate readings at 25C and 220C. The latest 1.17 dev build of RRF supports the Steinhart-Hart C coefficient for more accurate measurement. Without it, the temperature readings at 120C and 290C are less than 3C out.

    It wasn't necessary, exactly; I set the B value based on 200 and 250 C and let it come out to whatever it came out to at room temperature. Initially I totally misread the table and got outrageous values, but once I put the right numbers in, it's only about five degrees off, for a degree or two improvement on the 200-250 C range. It's the principle of the thing. As I said earlier, getting the temperature really exact would be more about improving the thermal design than about calibration. I don't have a better temperature-measuring device, so even the B value I got is based on the manufacturer's table, which is probably not measured either but based on one more Steinhart-Hart coefficient than the version I set up supports.

    Also I think the readout when the machine is cold, showing five degrees' imaginary difference between bed and heater, is a healthy reminder of the gap between measurement and reality.


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