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    Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake

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    • gallaghersart
      gallaghersart last edited by

      Hello Duet Community! Hope all is good! Finally ordered my 1st Duet

      I am Building a system for 3d, laser, light CNC and more.

      All drives except filament will be NEMA 23 with Built in Closed loop or “3.2A NEMA23 Smart Stepper” https://misfittech.net/3-2a-nema23-smart-stepper/ addon. With the Z-axis I want to also include an Electromagnetic Brake for CNC jobs.

      I am going the Railcores way of 3 Z-axis.

      Images and a little write up can be found on my website. Most images are old pictures, but the basic idea can be seen. http://gallaghersart.com/page/3d_printer_design

      Can this be done?

      Thanks!
      And Thanks to Duet for making some great stuff!
      Keep yourself and yours safe and healthy!
      `mike

      A Former User 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • A Former User
        A Former User @gallaghersart last edited by

        @gallaghersart possibly, you'll need a duet 2 (wifi/Ethernet) and use the duex expansion port to get step/dir signal for the smart drivers. Those have independent enable pins so you may be able to integrate with a z-brake; or some other means than disabled the driver to lock it.

        There isn't firmware for something like that I think, maybe you can have the cam bit generate g-code to trigger braking?

        Interesting project!

        deckingman 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • deckingman
          deckingman @Guest last edited by

          @bearer said in Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake:

          @gallaghersart possibly, you'll need a duet 2 (wifi/Ethernet) and use the duex expansion port to get step/dir signal for the smart drivers.................

          The OP's title starts with "Duet 3........"

          Ian
          https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
          https://www.youtube.com/c/deckingman/

          A Former User 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • A Former User
            A Former User @deckingman last edited by

            @deckingman said in Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake:

            The OP's title starts with "Duet 3........"

            Yes, but there aren't any step/dir pins for his motors. Could possibly solder something, but not exactly an recommend or supported solution.

            deckingman 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • deckingman
              deckingman @Guest last edited by deckingman

              @bearer The reason I pointed it out was that he also says "....Finally ordered my 1st Duet". I could be wrong (often am) but my take on that is that he has already bought ordered a Duet 3.

              Ian
              https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
              https://www.youtube.com/c/deckingman/

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • A Former User
                A Former User last edited by

                Doesn't change the features of the board I'm afraid; on the other hand he might know what he's doing and plans on breaking out a soldering iron.

                deckingman 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • deckingman
                  deckingman @Guest last edited by

                  @bearer So just to be clear to the OP, what you are saying is that he'd be better off buying the Duet 2 rather than the Duet 3 that it looks like he's already ordered (unless he breaks out the soldering iron etc). Just trying to clarify things for the OP.

                  Ian
                  https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                  https://www.youtube.com/c/deckingman/

                  A Former User 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • A Former User
                    A Former User @deckingman last edited by

                    @deckingman said in Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake:

                    @bearer So just to be clear to the OP, what you are saying is that he'd be better off buying the Duet 2 rather than the Duet 3 that it looks like he's already ordered (unless he breaks out the soldering iron etc). Just trying to clarify things for the OP.

                    That is my understanding, yes. Can double check when I get home if no one beats me to it.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • gallaghersart
                      gallaghersart last edited by gallaghersart

                      Thanks for your replies,

                      I figured some coding would need to be done, I have coded many different types before. I have not investigated how to make a new firmware for the duet 3 yet. Modifying / altering duet 3 board to get me to a protype is not a concern at this time. Soldering or anything else was expected.

                      I need the extra amps for the motors and that is why I choose the duet 3. I also figured I would have extra pins that could be used for other uses.

                      I also want to have a spring plate / mini piston in the hot end to release pressure in mixing / melting chamber. No Retraction of filament by filament motor. So yes, this would need to also be coded.

                      Along with a few other things not yet used or programmed into Duet 3.

                      I am figuring that down the road production of this system would / may require Duet making a custom board for my plans.

                      The duet 3 is the closest option at this time for a solution for my future plans as far as I know. Just a starting point that is something I can work with.

                      Thanks!
                      `mike

                      A Former User 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • A Former User
                        A Former User @gallaghersart last edited by A Former User

                        @gallaghersart said in Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake:

                        I need the extra amps for the motors and that is why I choose the duet 3.

                        But if you're using the smart steppers you power them directly and control them with logic level signals; no load on the Duet at all. (or did I get that bit wrong?)

                        I also figured I would have extra pins that could be used for other uses.

                        This is the big difference between the two; besides the IO ports with headers there aren't adittional logic level pins like the Duet 2 has. The 26pin header is only a SPI bus towards the Raspberry Pi.

                        My opinion is still unless you need the functions provided by the Raspberry Pi or the CAN bus, you'd be better of with a Duet 2. (Edit: which will be getting the same Raspberry Pi interface at some point in the undetermined future)

                        Schematics are online to review
                        https://github.com/Duet3D/Duet3-Mainboard-6HC
                        https://github.com/T3P3/Duet/tree/master/Duet2/Duet2v1.04

                        gallaghersart 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • gallaghersart
                          gallaghersart @Guest last edited by

                          @bearer
                          You are correct on external power, originally i was just going to use a NEMA 23 without any brake or closed loop.

                          But for CNC versions i want those options, then FDM system may just be basic nema23.

                          `mike

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • A Former User
                            A Former User last edited by A Former User

                            Fair enough

                            the Duet 3 is more expandable, but mostly in terms of the available expansion boards for the CAN bus, while the Duet 2 has the 50 pin expansion port with IO pins.

                            👇 Now its getting interesting!

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • dc42
                              dc42 administrators last edited by

                              For the future:

                              • We have prototype CAN-connected external stepper driver boards ordered, they should arrive soon
                              • We plan to make a "CNC version" of the Duet 3 main board supporting external stepper drivers

                              Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                              Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                              http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                              gallaghersart Andme 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • gallaghersart
                                gallaghersart @dc42 last edited by

                                @dc42
                                Music to my ears, thanks for the info, I will defiantly be looking forward to these and any other future capabilities.
                                `mike

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Andme
                                  Andme @dc42 last edited by

                                  @dc42 When is it anticipated that the CNC version of the board will be available?

                                  dc42 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • dc42
                                    dc42 administrators @Andme last edited by

                                    @Andme said in Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake:

                                    @dc42 When is it anticipated that the CNC version of the board will be available?

                                    Probably not until Q4 this year.

                                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                    hippyengineer 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • hippyengineer
                                      hippyengineer @dc42 last edited by

                                      @dc42 I know Covid has affected your operation but are you still on track for a CNC board soon?

                                      dBot MEGA DuetWifi, MPCNC Duet3/RPi

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                                      • dc42
                                        dc42 administrators last edited by dc42

                                        Unfortunately that project has been delayed, but it is next on our list. We have done some preparatory work for it and we expect it to be straightforward.

                                        Meanwhile, I took a few hours out yesterday to try our prototype closed loop expansion board with a larger motor.

                                        2020-10-19 10.37.37.jpg

                                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                        • gallaghersart
                                          gallaghersart last edited by

                                          Thanks for the update!

                                          Looking forward to making this my next project.

                                          In the image is the lower board the “prototype closed loop expansion board” if so, what board is above it?

                                          Is it me or is that image of the drive so mammoth compared to the electronics? Reminds of the little clown cars that hold so many.

                                          Thanks for update!
                                          `mike

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • dc42
                                            dc42 administrators last edited by

                                            Yes that board is the prototype closed loop board. The board above it is a Duet 3 Mini prototype. And yes, the stepper motor really is that big, it's this one https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/p-series-nema-34-closed-loop-stepper-motor-8-5nm-1203-94oz-in-with-electromagnetic-brake.html.

                                            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                            djstree 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                            • djstree
                                              djstree @dc42 last edited by

                                              @dc42 look forwarward to seeing them. Im eager to use ClearPath servos on my project with a Duet3.

                                              By closed loop do you have input for 1vpp from linear encoders? Or SSI/BissC/1vpp for absolute encoders? 🙂

                                              dc42 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                              • dc42
                                                dc42 administrators @djstree last edited by

                                                @djstree said in Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake:

                                                By closed loop do you have input for 1vpp from linear encoders? Or SSI/BissC/1vpp for absolute encoders?

                                                It has a quadrature input that can be used either for a digital linear encoder or for a rotary encoder built into a motor, as well as a separate SPI connector intended for a magnetic encoder that we will produce for attaching to the back of a Nema 17 or Nema 23 motor.

                                                Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                                Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                                http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                                djstree 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                • djstree
                                                  djstree @dc42 last edited by djstree

                                                  @dc42 BiSS C-mode would be good to have on the support list too. Open source protocol.
                                                  https://www.renishaw.com/media/pdf/en/de4d6a54313b48c3a4dadef7207ac4c1.pdf

                                                  "BiSS encoder output with Sin-Cos 1Vpp: BiSS encoders can also provide a 1V p-to-p sin/cos output for real-time control, since the on-demand absolute encoder data can come in too slowly for many control loops."

                                                  dc42 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                  • dc42
                                                    dc42 administrators @djstree last edited by dc42

                                                    @djstree said in Duet 3 NEMA 23 Closed loop with Z axis also using Elec Brake:

                                                    @dc42 BiSS C-mode would be good to have on the support list too. Open source protocol.
                                                    https://www.renishaw.com/media/pdf/en/de4d6a54313b48c3a4dadef7207ac4c1.pdf

                                                    "BiSS encoder output with Sin-Cos 1Vpp: BiSS encoders can also provide a 1V p-to-p sin/cos output for real-time control, since the on-demand absolute encoder data can come in too slowly for many control loops."

                                                    Stepper motors intended for closed loop control invariably have quadrature outputs. Analog encoder output sounds very retro to me and right now I do not intend to support it. I designed the quadrature decoder on the board to support high data rates, including the data rates provided by Renishaw digital encoders with a resolution of 100 counts/mm at speeds in excess of 1m/sec. This is way faster than the quadrature decoders used in other open source closed loop stepper motor controllers.

                                                    I guess analog encoding might be useful for BLDC motor applications where speed is more important than precision.

                                                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                                    djstree 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                    • djstree
                                                      djstree @dc42 last edited by

                                                      @dc42 Thanks for the update! I've just been looking at linear motors / linears scales for a new project requiring 3.2 meter Y travel (moving gantry) on a 1.3m wide granite bed. Tough to decide what to go for IP55 wise.

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