Smart effector connectors to Piezo



  • Not sure where to ask this, but it is SE-related.

    I currently have (and like) an SE on my Rostock delta. However, I'd like to have the option of using my V6Lite as well, but correspondence with E3D tells me that 1) they don't plan on making an SE-compatible sink for the Lite, and 2) selling additional standard sinks for use in the SE won't happen for some time.

    So, other threads here have already discussed using non-E3D heat breaks, to allow a Lite-like full PTFE run down the break. This could be fine, but would require purchasing an additional SE. Even this would be OK, as I'm looking to have a complete effector to swap out, each with a dedicated hot-end.

    However, I'd like to try the Precision Piezo, which is a little less money, and has the possibility of later being re-purposed to a future, non-delta printer. For my Rostock, I intend on using my existing SeeMeCNC effector / 713 Maker j-head mount, and the Precision j-head option.

    Trying to keep things as modular as possible, my plan is to run the piezo wires back through the SE's 8-pin Molex connector. Is this the appropriate male connector? https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=tRPrwvvr%2fujrTVuI%2f8n%2fhQ%3d%3d. I have the 6-pin connector info already from https://www.duet3d.com/forum/thread.php?id=2631#p24553.

    Thanks!



  • Just in case you want to use the lite6 for dual extrusion, there are better alternatives like the Prometheus heatbreak.

    Otherwise it should be possible to design a mount for the lite 6 that is compatible with the SE leveling mechanism.


  • administrators

    You could send an email to info at duet3d dot com asking if we can supply a heatsink without a Smart Effector. It could be that we have a few spares in stock, for example if some Smart Effectors have failed testing so that we have fewer working effectors than heatsinks.



  • Thank you for the replies, but I don't want to have to swap hot-ends on my SE - I want two separate effectors. As I said, a 2nd SE would be fine, but would require a Prometheus or questionable Chinese heat break, or extra hardware to create a custom mount.



  • but if you have a SE why would you want to use a piezo not that it is a poor design it isn't but i think even simon would admit that it is not really any better or worse than the SE?

    Doug



  • It's about as accurate sure, although we've a user reporting 7 microns accuracy and 2 microns deviation which is going to take some beating. I have a smarteffector and am very pleased with it. All of these systems are accurate enough.

    I am wondering what is different about the lite6 heatsink to the v6 heatsink? Just use the v6 heatsink with ptfe tube inside it down to the lite6 heatbreak.



  • I'd use an emoji for exasperation, if I could find one.

    I have no illusions about either being more accurate or reliable than the other - everything I've read puts them about on par with each other. Since I have most of the hardware already, having dedicated effectors is nice, especially considering how easy it is to swap them out with mag ball arms.

    As I said originally, adding a piezo to an existing, non-SE effector is less expensive for me than purchasing another SE with heat break (by about $25-45, depending on heat break).

    I've never had long-term, reliable PLA operation with a V6, whereas it runs very well with a V6Lite. The Lite doesn't have a separate heat break; the break and sink are one machined piece. Consequently, as far as I know, to have the Lite-like feature of a full PTFE lining in a V6 sink, requires an aftermarket break.



  • Okay I understand I've never had a lite l6 so that makes sense. Sorry.

    I'm sure if you have the correct plugs you can easily use either effector, piezo supports any groovemount heatsink, except e3d v6 3mm bowden, which is non standard sized. If you design your own piezo mount you can mount anything.

    3d printing needs someone to come up with a standardised multifunction connector for print heads, capable of running:
    -E0 Heater
    -E1 heater
    -E0 Temp
    -e1 temp
    -part fan
    -leds
    -Z probe

    With standardised extra flexible multicored cable, allowing 5amps for the heater wires and offering some shielding for z probe and temp channels, preferrably with a few sets of spare cores that could be crimped into action for future proofing.

    If you have 4 extruders then you would use 2 of them, perhaps they can dock together in a modular way. I'm certain the automotive world has modular cable systems we could just buy off the shelf, if anyone could be brave enough to propose and garner support for a standard.


  • administrators

    @DjDemonD:

    Okay I understand I've never had a lite l6 so that makes sense. Sorry.

    I'm sure if you have the correct plugs you can easily use either effector, piezo supports any groovemount heatsink, except e3d v6 3mm bowden, which is non standard sized. If you design your own piezo mount you can mount anything.

    3d printing needs someone to come up with a standardised multifunction connector for print heads, capable of running:
    -E0 Heater
    -E1 heater
    -E0 Temp
    -e1 temp
    -part fan
    -leds
    -Z probe

    With standardised extra flexible multicored cable, allowing 5amps for the heater wires and offering some shielding for z probe and temp channels, preferrably with a few sets of spare cores that could be crimped into action for future proofing.

    If you have 4 extruders then you would use 2 of them, perhaps they can dock together in a modular way. I'm certain the automotive world has modular cable systems we could just buy off the shelf, if anyone could be brave enough to propose and garner support for a standard.

    I prefer:

    +12V/+24V
    Ground
    Signal, using Lin bus or similar

    Use an on-board microcontroller to do the fan control and temperature regulation in response to commands sent over the Lin bus, and feed back temperature and Z probe status on the LIN bus.



  • If you have a 713maker mount, using it with a piezo is very simple.

    Print one of these, and get a piezo board + 27mm piezo, and you're set. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2268205



  • Kraegar - love that mount, one of the simplest ways to do it ever, I send people to that listing freqnetly, nice work.

    David, yes that sounds great, and I think its absolutely the future, I'd love one and I get the idea that maybe in the future we might have one… However it would be nice if some sort of standard could be proposed which had backwards compatibility in mind. Some connector which could be laid out to suit this canbus style scheme but also support the current way that nearly everyone in the world does it right now. Just a thought.


  • administrators

    IMO the two approaches are incompatible. You either have a lot of wires to the hot end (we have 14 on the Smart Effector, to support a 4-wire PT100 connection), or you have a small number of wires with more intelligence on the hot end.

    The main choice is what signal connection to use to an intelligent hot end. There will be ground noise due to the long wires and extruder heater and fan currents. Originally I was thinking of optically isolated async serial, but that needs at least 3 signal wires. CAN would need just 2 signal wires, but a more expensive processor and a CAN transceiver on the hot end. LIN would need just 1 signal wire and could use a cheaper processor.



  • I can see the attraction of having a simple cable with 4 wires in it, to do everything rather than a multicore cable with 14 wires in it, but… in either of those cables there will have to be between 3 and 4 up to 5A rated cores for either the +12/+24 and GND or the Heater0+1(and GND/s) for the backwards compatible cable.

    All the other wires could be quite minuscule and won't really make the cable noticeably larger.



  • The concept of a standardized communication scheme to a hot-end, along with its associated cabling and connectors, would be a breath of fresh air. I've gone through several iterations of connectors on my printer over the last 3 years, from the original hard-wired, through JST, XT30 and now the SE, likely with another variation in there that I've forgotten about.

    I don't have the data protocol knowledge to contribute to this topic, but by all means keep the creative juices flowing. If one or two controller manufacturers, and a couple of printer manufacturers got on board, this could really begin to spread.



  • @dc42:

    …................................CAN would need just 2 signal wires, but a more expensive processor and a CAN transceiver on the hot end...........................

    Off topic I know but I'd love to see this on the next gen Duet. An intelligent module that could be used for (and mounted close to) any hot end and which just needs power and data wiring. Likewise stepper modules. Not necessarily for individual steppers but for situations where there might be two or more clustered fairly close together, such as multiple lead screws or, in my case 5 extruders. I've got 10 steppers (and can see a need for more) so that's 40 conductors that all have be routed back to the Duet/Duex. I'd much rather have multiple modules strategically placed on the frame, than a single point to which every conductor has to be routed.


  • administrators

    We have already announced that the next generation Duet will use CAN bus to connect expansion modules. What I am less sure about is whether CAN makes sense for other devices such as smart hot ends and filament monitors, where space is at a premium and costs need to be kept down. The automotive industry as adopted LIN bus as a complement to CAN for similar reasons.



  • CAN, LIN, whatever. It's not my field of expertise so I wouldn't presume to suggest what type of data bus to use. I'd guess whichever bus technology is used, it'll need two conductors then another two for power. So for anything that uses 4 conductors or less, like a single stepper or filament monitor, then a (local) module would be pretty pointless. But for say a hot end carriage, that has a heater, fan, temperature sensor, a Z probe, probably part cooling fan(s), possible lights, possibly axis limit switches etc, then a local module fixed to the carriage say, makes a lot of sense. For sure it'll take a bit of space but on the gantry/carriage, not the hot end itself. Any extra weight would likely be compensate for by only needing short conductors between the module and components with just data and power going back to a central point. Of course with Delta printers, everything is a lot more compact and it's relatively easy to fit the electronics close to all the stepper motors, which themselves are all close together but for those of use with motors scattered around a large frame, running all the conductors back to a central point can be a bit of a nightmare.

    Anyway, enough of my ramblings and apologies for going off topic.


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