steppers with lots of Amp... + M906 command

Hi,
I am currently comparing datasheets and calculating lot´s of stuff for the right steppers for a custom buildup. Since the printer will be a big one (ca. 700x700mm printbed > 1000x1000 size) I have quite some weight to move and combined with the right ratio and size of steppers I have currently for the X/YAxis steppers (nidec KA60) in mind that are rated with 3.3A and that I would like to run with ca. 2.8A3.0A by the trinamic chip... Question: Is the trinamic chip stable over hours if not days with so much amp? Would I Need a heatsink + activecooling on the chips?
 Question: Would the command simply be "M906 X:3000, Y:3000, ..."? Or is there any safetyfeature that I have to disable to draw more then the 2.4A from the driverchips?
Best, Lucas

@lb You cannot run the drivers higher than 2.4A. The firmware just won't accept higher values.
But at around 2A you definitely need active cooling. A fan cooling the back side of the Duet will be sufficient. No additional heat sinks required if the fan blows cool (room temperature) air.

I use 2.8A NEMA 23 motors for testing the Duets at high current. According to the data sheet, 2.4A is about the maximum safe standstill current. If we could guarantee to reduce the current at standstill, we could go higher. Unfortunately the TMC2660 doesn't do standstill current reduction in hardware. Doing it in firmware in a way that is responsive enough when a motor starts moving and guarantees to reduce the current within a few tens of milliseconds of standstill no matter what else is going on is difficult.

Thanks so much for your fast and good answers! Will dig into a motor that is around 7090% with 2.4A then...
Planning with heatsinks (those watterott sells for their trinamicdriver although I know they are put on the "underside" of the chip > can heatsinks be put on the bottomside or should I put them on top of the chip?) on the chips and a fan from below (found that is already explained very nicely on the setuppage shame on me )> Ah, that KA60 with 3.3A would have run so fast and energy efficient from my calculations, now search for which "stepper got talent" starts again

@lb What kinematics do you build? CoreXY where the bed is moved "just" up and down? Or Cartesian with the bed moving in Y? You said that there is a lot of weight to move but I think you underestimate what a high torque NEMA17 can do.
@deckingman is moving a bed of about 8kg total weight up and down with a single NEMA17 with 59Ncm. Given, its top speed is rather low at 7.5mm/s but in Z you don't need high speeds anyway.
Also I just recently bought Wantai 42BYGHW811. They "only" have 48Ncm and I also run them at just 52% but one of them will throw my about 1kg bed around at 250mm/s if it was made from Styrofoam instead.

@wilriker Actually it's acceleration that is limited by the available motor torque. So for a really long Z move, I could attain a higher speed. It doesn't take much force to keep a mass moving at a constant speed, but it takes a hell of a lot more force to accelerate that mass.

@dc42
O.K. didn´t know that.
The webstie (https://www.trinamic.com/products/integratedcircuits/details/tmc2660pa/) claims it features some sort of autoadjust of the current ("coolStep™
load dependent current control for energy savings
up to 75%")... looking at page 12 of the PDF (https://www.trinamic.com/fileadmin/assets/Products/ICs_Documents/TMC2660_datasheet.pdf) it is like you said, the more you want "torque reserve" in a highresponsive environment, the less you can benefit from "coolstep"...:> Seems like you already played with it. Could it be made accessible on the duet (In some sort of "developer"mode)?
> Another question it says you can drive up to 2.8A (with ext. mosfets up to 4A)? If one could tune the coolstep on the chip could we "unlock" those 2.8A with a proper coolingfan & heatsinks (those biggies here e.g. https://www.watterott.com/de/SilentStepStickKuehlkoerper14x15x13) on the drivers?

@lb coolStep is already available via M915's
Tnnn
parameter. But it fully depends on a finetuned stallGuard (that will be configured with the same command).

@wilriker
Hi, thanks for the fast reply. Will be similar to a ultimaker split axis design  only with supported outer rails  (x and y independent with their own motor and beltsynchronisation of the 2 sides): so X & Y are equal only flipped and rotated 90°, the moving mass of each (X or Y) will be ca. 5KG (3.xKG the linearelements, belts, pulleywheels, axis, bushings, etc/ 1.x the directdrive printhead with hotend, fans, etc.)> only 1 motor to optimize for 2 axis
Yeah, guess I will focus on ac/deceleration and not on the highendspeed after that > isn´t really needed on a printer since the "position" moves are not so many like on a cncmill or similar
For Z (10mm aluminiumplate ca. 10KG + 5KG rest) there is a big 2.8A 2.xNM 0.9° oriental stepper on 2*TR16x2 (beltsynchronised) moving it up and down > that one for sure does not need any speed as far as I plan in the moment. If there should be any problems on the zaxis I could still play with ratio of the pulleywheels...
By the way this is not for me (would not have the money for that) but for another person...

@wilriker
Wow thanks!

@lb said in steppers with lots of Amp... + M906 command:
Yeah, guess I will focus on ac/deceleration and not on the highendspeed after that
In this case this might be handy.

@deckingman
Thanks so much!
Yes right. Will focus on more torque in the slowzone then, won´t need the high abs speed anyway

@wilriker
Thanks, only found the download calcsheet, but haven´t seen the online calculator.What it misses for my setup to be of a value:
> Reduction ratio that I seem to have to use on this setup (since reduction is going with "/ ratio^2" for inertia but only "/ratio" in speed very important in my understanding)
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f1d3/f1eee2a1a3380eb5cdbc3a605a21c6058bfd.pdf
& with a formula for beltdrivensystems:
https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faqhowdoicalculatetheinertiaofaservodrivensystem/> Inertia of motorshaftclamped pulleywheel or whatsoever on motor should be addedable to the motorinertia
> max speed vs backemf
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Choosing_and_connecting_stepper_motors#Section_Back_emf_due_to_rotation> positional error vs. rotation speed based on currentsettling (determined by (m)H)
https://www.orientalmotor.com/steppermotors/technology/steppermotorbasics.html> efficient over lifetime by matching drivesupplyVdc for given motorH
https://softsolder.com/2011/05/05/thingomaticmbisteppermotoranalysis/But maybe I shouldn´t be so worried about all that

@lb This calculator is solely about acceleration.
For speed vs. backEMF you can use the EMF calculator at https://reprapfirmware.org.You could approximate the reduction ratio by reducing the axis mass that you enter into the calculator. But I will think about adding gear ratio to the calculator also.
Can you give me a formula how to calculate the inertia of a drive pulley? I know how to do it for the rotor inertia based on the value given in the datasheet. If this is based on the pulley's diameter this could even be added easily without another input field.

@wilriker
edited the "mess" above, please have a look at the "old" comment again

@lb You somehow managed to convert all links (except the first) to be images of the text of the link destination. I would not even know how to do that if I wanted to.

@wilriker
Oops  hopefully fixed now  please check again! (Learned: Do not copy what is in field of openofficecalc by just clicking on the field and (on windows) press ctrl+c but rather select what is in that field first and then press ctrl+c...)

@lb said in steppers with lots of Amp... + M906 command:
What it misses for my setup to be of a value:
> Reduction ratio that I seem to have to use on this setup (since reduction is going with "/ ratio^2" for inertia but only "/ratio" in speed very important in my understanding)
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f1d3/f1eee2a1a3380eb5cdbc3a605a21c6058bfd.pdf
& with a formula for beltdrivensystems:
https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faqhowdoicalculatetheinertiaofaservodrivensystem/> Inertia of motorshaftclamped pulleywheel or whatsoever on motor should be addedable to the motorinertia
I just looked at the second links with the formulas. I don't think that this matters too much. Because usually the mass of belt and pulley are negligible compared to all other masses in play. I don't think it makes sense to add 1050g to even 500g axis (although it lowers the acceleration a bit). It won't have a large effect but makes the number of input fields in the calculator a lot more.
But maybe I shouldn´t be so worried about all that
I have a feeling that you are dead right with this assumption.
P.S.: I think I will add gear ratio to the Advanced Settings.

@wilriker
cool! Looking forward to itCan anybody help me for my "openofficecalc"sheet for the motors how to convert the given g cm^2 from the motor to put into perspective J for comparison... or do I get it right when J = g*cm^2 ?

@lb OK, gear ratio is now added under Advanced Settings.
About your question on how to convert g cm² into J. In the online calculator this is done the following way:
rotorMass = (motorCount * rotorInertia) / (pulleyRadius * pulleyRadius) / 1000.0;
Is that what you asked for?

@wilriker
Thanks!To be honest all that is so new to me, that I do not know if it is what I am looking for  that said  I am realizing, what I am looking for is how to convert what is given in most datasheets for steppers to what I need to put into the "inertiamatch"/"inertiaratio" formulas, so if I take your formula I have a few questions:
 rotorMass? > In gramm (you divide by 1000 in the end)
 motorCount? > rpm or rps? Or what else?
 pulleyRadius? > Of which pulley, the "main" pulley?
At least a first thread I can maybe follow down the road...

@lb said in steppers with lots of Amp... + M906 command:
To be honest all that is so new to me, that I do not know if it is what I am looking for
Don't worry, so it is to me. I am learning as I go  and usually I create online calculators along the way and learn more by the feedback I get for these.
 that said  I am realizing, what I am looking for is how to convert what is given in most datasheets for steppers
Can you be a bit more specific on that? Stepper data sheets contain a lot of values.
 rotorMass? > In gramm (you divide by 1000 in the end)
The result is of course in kg. Relevant here is rotor inertia which is given in the datasheet of stepper motors as g.cm².
 motorCount? > rpm or rps? Or what else?
This is for the case where you have multiple motors driving the same axis as in CoreXY machines. This really is the count of motors.
 pulleyRadius? > Of which pulley, the "main" pulley?
The pulley fixed to the motor shaft.

@wilriker said in steppers with lots of Amp... + M906 command:
Can you give me a formula how to calculate the inertia of a drive pulley? I know how to do it for the rotor inertia based on the value given in the datasheet. If this is based on the pulley's diameter this could even be added easily without another input field.
Rotational mass would be diameter x "length" correct? Some people run 6mm belts and some run 9mm belts. Maybe others as well.
Maybe too trivial to worry about...

@danal From what the OP added as resources via links this was actually the inertia added by the mass of the pulley and belts themselves. Those 10 to 50 grams.

@wilriker said in steppers with lots of Amp... + M906 command:
@lb said in steppers with lots of Amp... + M906 command:
To be honest all that is so new to me, that I do not know if it is what I am looking for
Don't worry, so it is to me. I am learning as I go  and usually I create online calculators along the way and learn more by the feedback I get for these.
 that said  I am realizing, what I am looking for is how to convert what is given in most datasheets for steppers
Can you be a bit more specific on that? Stepper data sheets contain a lot of values.
rotorinertia given in g cm^2 > "J" for ratio
 rotorMass? > In gramm (you divide by 1000 in the end)
The result is of course in kg. Relevant here is rotor inertia which is given in the datasheet of stepper motors as g.cm².
sounds good with g cm^2
 motorCount? > rpm or rps? Or what else?
This is for the case where you have multiple motors driving the same axis as in CoreXY machines. This really is the count of motors.
Oops sorry for that question
 pulleyRadius? > Of which pulley, the "main" pulley?
The pulley fixed to the motor shaft.
But what if there is a small pulley going from the motor to a "main"shaft that has a ratio? > What pulley then? Say 25,465mm r(motor) to 14,006 r(mainshaft) (gearratio of 1,818) > Pick the one where the load is driven from?