Part Wobble (Formerly: [need] Gates GT2 Belt[?])
I'll test the line thickness later.
I noticed the worst of the problem is at line start, and when I did a test dropping extrusion multiplier from 100 - 80% on the 80% end of the scale it appear that the undulation was thickness, rather than position. To add yet another thing to the mix this maybe extruder related!
I'm one filament guide short of a titan extruder (git it in a bundle of e3d parts on ebay) so I'll give that a go after printing a guide!
Edit: current extruder is ormerod 2 style with printed helical gears.
Can I ask what steps per mm and microstepping you're using?
I can't tell for sure from your picture, but it looks more like ghosting than vertical ribbing in that it fades away. I've had ribbing occur from belts meshing poorly with the toothed idler. I ended up using a twist in the belt to run the smooth side on a pair of flanged bearings. Ribbing gone.
Wyvern last edited by
It would be worth trying dynamic jerk control.
If it helps it would support the fact if it is indeed ringing or extrusion issues.
I used it on my machine, and the little bit of ghosting I was trying to eliminate is essentially gone.
I used 40x40 XYZ calibration cubes with 1 perimeter and no infill with a print speed of 60mm/s on the walls.
I thought dynamic jerk was Duet 2 only? Will check though.
Edit: Dynamic jerk is not available on v0.6 or v0.8.5 boards.
16 microstepping, 80 steps per mm. Extruder is around 420.
bot last edited by
Those belts do not look anything like gates GT belts.
Gates GT is a curvilinear tooth profile. Your teeth look very much like trapezoidal teeth. These teeth profile are made for transferring materials, not precise locating.
They're also too cheep to be gates too! I was just using that one as a size guide to show the major ripple and the belt have a similar pitch. Not the same as the belts on the machine.
Edit: My question about ID markings for the gates was so I could tell if I had recieved gates or normal if I ordered new belts.
AlexLin last edited by
just upgraded to e3d gates belts on my corexy (yes they are genuine) what also improved quality is replacing all china pulleys/idler with the gates from e3d. They have a 5mm inner diameter. I can see less/no wobble in the Y axis when moving in X, i did with the china ones iwth 3mm inner diameter. They were not true center, even the more expensive ones.
Yes, the off centre pulleys are a particular frustration of mine!
Some better pictures of current state. There is a little ghosting but these are mostly constant.
First side (Parallel to Y). The section of the part with text seems to effect the side after. I'm assuming the tool is being moved slightly faster here.
Second Side (Parallel to X)
Third Side (Parallel to Y)
@bot Thanks for making me double check my belts! The belts that I had on where a semi-circle section on the tooth, but one of the belts I had lying around weren't. No idea where it came from but scrapped it. I have now replaced the belts with other belts I had as the alternatives were a little thicker. Very slight improvement in finish but not solved the problem.
I've now replaced each of the following one at a time with a test print between:
- X-axis belt. - Minor improvement,
- Replaced sprung loaded bed adjustment with a locked up nut/bolt alternative like the standard Ormerod set up. - No observable difference.
- Y-axis belt. - In test.
I'm now printing a re-designed base to my z axis that will make that joint more rigid.
Failing that I may need to replace the ply bed support with the alloy alternative that I run on my other two Ormerodishes.
Y axis belt change had little effect.
Flipping the belt to run over a pair of 10mm bearings has had little effect.
I've ordered a set of polymer LM12UU bearings just incase the better z-axis base doesn't fix it. The bearings are from a second hand machine I never ran so they may be bad.
Edit: I don't think this is extruder related any more because the pattern would be equally bad on the x-axis parallel surface of the square test. The motor currents are set high at 1000mA, and the settings for x and y axis are currently the same acceleration, jerk, and current.
UnderDoneSushi last edited by
@doctrucker Gates LL2MR06 PowerGrip GT2 -- this is the designation for the standard GT2 belts.
Z-base - no help. Polymer y bearings helped a little, the old bearings rattled quite a lot.
Switching to the aluminium bed support (from ply, not MDF) caused the axis to lock. On closer inspection the y-rods were too close together by the order of 0.5mm or so. So, in a right faf of an assembly I've spaced the bearing holders away from the aluminimum bed support by a couple of washers and checked the bed moves smoothly. It's much better and assume the alignment issue may have killed the other bearings.
The polymer bearings aren't as great as I had hoped. There is a slight play in the bed caused by the bearings either being slightly over sized, or damaged by the misalignment. I'm hesitant about ditching the whole bed support for a v-slot or linear bearing bed. Not least because the bed support is £45! Also because it is really rigid. We'll see how things go.
Bed level is really good at the moment so I will disable bed compensation as a test.
Also will try a bigger stepper motor on the y axis.
Keeping on fighting the fight...
Running M561 and resetting the nozzle offset with G10 P0 Zx to 0 had no effect. I'm assuming this cancels both the bed level and orthogonal correction?
Edit: Bigger motor next after extending the wires. Running standard Ormerod2 motor at 1000mA.
Edit2: Shifting motor currents on the JK42HS34-1334AC stock Ormerod2 motors (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Reprap-3d-printer-Nema17-Stepper-Motor_60065855190.html) to 800, 1200, and back to 1000mA had no observable difference to the wobble. Not tried bigger motor yet.
Swapping the motors made a big difference, but didn't cure it. A finer pitch wobble on the surface parallel to the x axis has now gone.
Just rebuilt the x carriage as there was a little play in it.
Getting close to needing to order propper pulleys and stepper dampeners. Will save the genuine gates belts until next desperate attempt!
Edgars Batna last edited by Edgars Batna
@doctrucker I'd be interested in your results using the dampeners. From my experience it's rarely the belts, but rather the frame or axes, or motors.
@edgars-batna I'm hoping the (slightly) loose wheel on the x carriage may have cause the worst of it. Machine is warming up. I'm likely to order the GT2 20t genuine pulleys as I know mine are off centre, but that would be a ~40mm ripple not 1.5-0.75mm ish ripple. I'll order the dampeners at the same time. I've been dubious of them but I am getting a lot of stepper vibration and noise now with the v0.8.5 16x microstepping so will try it.
This was the change when I changed stepper motor on the x axis to a salvaged: 17HS19-2004S1
This is the better surface, rather than the original issue pictured before. Original on the left, new motor on the right. No pressure advance steps on the right.
As always I think this was a multi faceted issue and I've been slowly fixing the issues as I've worked through this. I've ordered some longer bolts and nylocks for my x-carriage and will use them on the next carriage rebuild.
Picture on the left is the original, on the right is the part after rebuilding the x-axis carriage. You can still see the ripple, but it is far less pronounced. There is a little of the higher frequency / shorter wavelength ripple that I originally saw on the best side now beginning to show through on this side. I think this is ripple being driven by the major step size of the motor. I'll look at this test piece again when I've got the dampeners in, but until then I am happy to continue with the setup of this machine at long last!
Couldn't tell you why the shineyness has gone on the part on the left. Loss of a shiny finish tends to happen when the extrusion rate increases, but I haven't changed that much, if any.
Edgars Batna last edited by
@doctrucker From my observations, shininess goes away if the layers don't have time to fuse properly and basically get frozen as "pancakes with gaps between layers" instead of forming a continuous wall. This is either too low temperature or too low pressure / too little material. It might seem like the prints get better, but I'd test strength to make sure the layers have proper bonding.
That's a fair observation, I'll bare it in mind. I've been wondering about an open source tensile test rig. Not even done initial searcjes to see if it has been done.
When I do open air non linear extrusion tests I see the finish of the bead going from shiney at low speeds to dull/matt at higher. In industrial extrusion the effect is called sharkskin. I think it happens when the melt slips past the nozzle bore walls/surface rather than flow. As temperature increases the polymer would tend to flow with less resistance.
I often find my models are half and half, particularly where I'm not printing enough per layer and the slicer decides to slow down the layer. Obviously a situation to avoid in a proper print but often great at showing up uglies on your printer during test!
Edit: I realise you can swing a weight of a hook or similar for a strength test, I was just interested in a more capable machine.
Edgars Batna last edited by
@doctrucker Never heard of the "sharkskin effect" so I just learned something new. I do observe the shininess going away at high flowrate and increasing the temperature usually brings the shininess back. I'd think the skin is less likely to form if there's enough temperature, but it's a whole, huge other topic.
Direct over head lihhting makes these look worse than they are in the flesh, this wobble is hard to photograph!
Right to left we have:
Control with previous mods,
Stepper motor dampeners,
Dampers made a big difference to noise, with a small difference in part quality. Pulleys are no longer visually off centre and the axis feels much better, but made no difference to the part.
Acceleration for the perimeter is currently 500 and Instant speed is 400 which I thought was already conservative even for a cantilever.
I think I may still have a mechanical/frame issue somewhere...
Extruder mods not expected to improve the situation because the surface 90 degrees to the pictured is much better. That said I had a Titan knockoff (came with a bundle of second hand E3D parts) to try at some point.
I sped things up to avoid a resonance on the bed and there was a noticeable improvement but still not fixed.
I'm now convinced the way I've joined the z-axis extrusion to the y-axis has resulted in excessive spring. I need to return to the drawing board.