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    IDEX motor jitter

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    • MaxGyverundefined
      MaxGyver @dc42
      last edited by

      @dc42

      For now, I am using the same values for all closed loop axes:

      M569.1 P124.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H100
      

      The problem is also present in open loop mode. I have no issue running the printer with two Y motors on the gantry and a single X-Axis. As soon as I add the U-Axis, the jitter is back. It is most prominent when printing short lines at high speed. I was not able to replicate this behavior outside of a print.

      fcwiltundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • fcwiltundefined
        fcwilt @MaxGyver
        last edited by

        @maxgyver

        Could you test running U off of a driver on the 6HC?

        Frederick

        Printers: a E3D MS/TC setup and a RatRig Hybrid. Using Duet 3 hardware running 3.4.6

        MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • MaxGyverundefined
          MaxGyver @fcwilt
          last edited by MaxGyver

          @fcwilt said in IDEX motor jitter:

          @maxgyver

          Could you test running U off of a driver on the 6HC?

          Frederick

          I just tested this without success. The issue is still present while running U from the main board. But I got the impression that U gets out of sync at the start of each move. On faster moves with high acceleration, it seems to be more severe.

          EDIT: Also tested running both Y-Motors from the main board with the same result.

          fcwiltundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • fcwiltundefined
            fcwilt @MaxGyver
            last edited by

            @maxgyver said in IDEX motor jitter:

            @fcwilt said in IDEX motor jitter:

            @maxgyver

            Could you test running U off of a driver on the 6HC?

            Frederick

            I just tested this without success. The issue is still present while running U from the main board. But I got the impression that U gets out of sync at the start of each move. On faster moves with high acceleration, it seems to be more severe.

            EDIT: Also tested running both Y-Motors from the main board with the same result.

            What happens if you swap the connections between X and U? The question being is it related to the U axis (firmware problem) or the U hardware.

            What sort of speeds are you trying to print at? You mentioned short lines at high speed.

            Frederick

            Printers: a E3D MS/TC setup and a RatRig Hybrid. Using Duet 3 hardware running 3.4.6

            MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • MaxGyverundefined
              MaxGyver @fcwilt
              last edited by MaxGyver

              @fcwilt

              I am fairly certain that this is a firmware issue, since the problem is also present when U is driven from the main board and the same jittering is present in X when the second extruder (U-axis) is printing and the first extruder (X-axis) is only moving in Y.

              Right now, I am printing at 200mm/s with 5000mm/sยฒ accelerations on X, Y and U. Although the jittering is less severe at lower speeds, it is still noticeable.

              EDIT:
              It is really hard to tell by watching the print. But I got the strong impression that the jitter only courses when the Y-Axis moves! When Y is stationary, the jitter is gone ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

              dc42undefined fcwiltundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • dc42undefined
                dc42 administrators @MaxGyver
                last edited by

                @maxgyver do you have any toothed belts running over smooth idlers?

                Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • MaxGyverundefined
                  MaxGyver @dc42
                  last edited by

                  @dc42 said in IDEX motor jitter:

                  @maxgyver do you have any toothed belts running over smooth idlers?

                  Nope. I am a little offended by that. ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜‰

                  This is what I have done so far:

                  • checked for loose pulleys
                  • checked belt and belt path
                  • checked if linear rails run smooth
                  • checked motor cables and connectors
                  • checked CAN cable (All from Kenable)
                  • deactivated bed leveling
                  • deactivated demon.g

                  I have also rewritten most of my config file without success.

                  dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • fcwiltundefined
                    fcwilt @MaxGyver
                    last edited by

                    @maxgyver said in IDEX motor jitter:

                    @fcwilt

                    I am fairly certain that this is a firmware issue, since the problem is also present when U is driven from the main board and the same jittering is present in X when the second extruder (U-axis) is printing and the first extruder (X-axis) is only moving in Y.

                    Right now, I am printing at 200mm/s with 5000mm/sยฒ accelerations on X, Y and U. Although the jittering is less severe at lower speeds, it is still noticeable.

                    EDIT:
                    It is really hard to tell by watching the print. But I got the strong impression that the jitter only courses when the Y-Axis moves! When Y is stationary, the jitter is gone ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

                    I see you are using x32 micro-stepping for X, Y and U.

                    And the speeds you mentioned (200mm/s) are rather fast.

                    Perhaps the 6HC system cannot keep up?

                    Could you try x16 micro-stepping at 100mm/s?

                    I agree it may be the firmware. I am seeking to determine if there is a threshold condition that when crossed the problem appears.

                    Thanks.

                    Disclaimer: I am still on firmware 3.3.0 as I am letting others deal with the issues in 3.4.x.

                    Frederick

                    ; Configuration file for Duet 3 (firmware version 3)
                    ; executed by the firmware on start-up
                    ; generated by RepRapFirmware Configuration Tool v3.1.4 on Wed Aug 05 2020 11:42:30 GMT+0200 (Mitteleuropรคische Sommerzeit)
                    
                    ; General preferences
                    M550 P"Factory500"  ; set printer name
                    
                    ; Blower
                    M950 F0 C"!out4+out4.tach" C"Blower" Q25000 ; create fan 0 on pin out4 and set its frequency
                    M106 P0 X0.40 B0 H1:2 T80
                    
                    ; Chamer Fan
                    M950 F4 C"!out5+out5.tach" A"Filter Fan"
                    M106 P4 X0.30 B0 H0:1:2 T60
                    
                    ; Power ON
                    M81 C"pson"
                    M80 ; switch power on
                    G4 S4 ; wait for expansion boards to boot
                    
                    ; Drives
                    M569 P0 S0 ; Drive 0.0/Z1 motor (rear left)
                    M569 P1 S1 ; Drive 0.1/Z2 motor (rear right)
                    M569 P2 S1 ; Drive 0.2/Z3 motor (front right)
                    M569 P3 S0 ; Drive 0.3/Z4 motor (front left)
                    M569 P4 S1 ; Drive 0.4/E1 motor
                    M569 P5 S0 ; Drive 0.5/E2 motor
                    
                    ; Closed loop drives
                    M569 P123.0 S0 ; X-Motor
                    M569 P124.0 S0 ; U-Motor
                    M569 P125.0 S0 ; Y1-Motor
                    M569 P126.0 S1 ; Y2-Motor
                    M569.1 P123.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 123 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                    M569.1 P124.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 124 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                    M569.1 P125.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 125 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                    M569.1 P126.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 126 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                    
                    ; Motion System
                    M584 X123.0 Y125.0:126.0 Z0:1:2:3 U124.0 E4:5 ; set 4 Z drivers and add one U driver -> Must come earlier than M350,M906,M92, M201, M203, M208, M350, M566, M574, M667 and M669
                    M350 X32 Y32 Z16 U32 E16:16 I1 ; Configure microstepping with interpolation
                    M92  X160 Y160 Z640 U160 E400:400  ; Set steps per mm
                    M203 X42000 Y42000 Z1800 U42000 E10000:10000; A40000 B40000 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
                    M566 X600 Y600 Z200 U600 E600:600 ; set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
                    M201 X30000 Y30000 Z500 U30000 E30000:30000 ;A6000 B6000 ; Set maximum accelerations (mm/s^2)
                    M906 X2400 Y2400 Z1200 U2400 E900:900 I25 ;A300 B300 ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
                    M84 S5 ; Set idle timeout
                    M917 X50 Y50 Z50 U50 ; Set holding current in percent
                    
                    ; Kinematics
                    M669 K11 Y1:-1:0:-1 ; Matrix mapping for Axis - X:Y:Z:U
                    ;M669 K11 X1:0:0:0 Y1:-1:0:-1 Z0:0:1:0 U0:0:0:1 ; Matrix mapping for Axis - X:Y:Z:U
                    ;M669 K1 X1:0:0:0 Y1:-1:0:-1 Z0:0:1:0 U0:0:0:1
                    
                    M671 X-41:495.5:495.5:-41 Y353:353:23:23 S10 ; lead screw positions and maximum allowed correction S in mm
                    G90 ; send absolute coordinates...
                    M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
                    
                    ; Axis Limits
                    M208 X0 Y0 Z0 U0 S1 ; set axis minima
                    M208 X405 Y323 Z350 U405 S0 ; set axis maxima
                     
                    ; Endstops
                    M574 X1 S1 P"123.io1.in" ; configure active-high endstop for low end on X via pin io1.in
                    M574 Y2 S1 P"126.io1.in" ; configure active-high endstop for low end on Y via pin io1.in
                    M574 U2 S1 P"124.io1.in" ; configure active-high endstop for high end on U via pin io1.in
                    M574 Z2 S1 P"io3.in" ; configure active-high endstop for high end on Z via pin io0.in
                    
                    ; Z-Probe
                    M558 P5 C"io5.in" H2 A10 S0.01 R0 F300:150 T60000       ; IR Z-Probe 1: set Z probe type and the dive height + speeds
                    M376 H10                                                ; Set height (mm) over which to taper off the bed compensation (should be 20x max mesh error)
                    G31 P500 X0 Y20 Z1.5                                    ; Set Z probe parameters, lower Z-value -> nozzle further down
                                                            
                    ; Bed Heater
                    M308 S0 P"temp0" A"Bed" Y"thermistor" T100000 B3950 ; define bed temperature sensor
                    M950 H0 C"out8" Q10 T0 ; create bed heater output on bed output and map it to sensor 0
                    M143 H0 S125 ; set temperature limit for heater 0 to 120C
                    M307 H0 R0.383 K0.269:0.000 D2.81 E1.35 S1.00 B0 ; enable PWM mode for the bed heater and set PWM limit
                    M140 H0 ; map heated bed to heater 0
                    
                    ; Hotend1 Heater
                    M308 S1 P"temp1" A"Extruder1" Y"pt1000" R2200 ; configure sensor 1 as PT1000 on pin temp1
                    M950 H1 C"out1" T1 ; create nozzle heater output on out1 and map it to sensor 1
                    M143 H1 S300 ; set temperature limit for heater 1 to 280C
                    M307 H1 R2.872 K0.252:0.115 D1.45 E1.35 S1.00 B0 V23.8
                    
                    ; Hotend2 Heater
                    M308 S2 P"temp2" A"Extruder2" Y"pt1000" R2200 ; configure sensor 2 as PT1000 on pin temp2
                    M950 H2 C"out2" T2 ; create nozzle heater output on out2 and map it to sensor 2
                    M143 H2 S300 ; set temperature limit for heater 2 to 280C
                    M307 H2 R2.872 K0.252:0.115 D1.45 E1.35 S1.00 B0 V23.8 ; disable bang-bang mode for heater and set PWM limit
                    
                    ; Tools
                    ; tool 0, X-axis
                    M563 P0 D0 H1 X0 F1 ; tool 0 uses extruder1 and heater 1 with fan 1 as the print cooling fan
                    M568 P0 R0 S0 ; set standby and active temperatures for tool 0
                    G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0 S0 R0 ; set tool 0 offsets and temperatures
                    M950 F1 C"out6" ; T0 Fan
                    
                    ; tool 1, U-axis 
                    M563 P1 D1 H2 X3 F2 ; tool 1 uses extruder2 and heater 2 with fan 2 as the print cooling fan and maps X to U
                    M568 P1 R0 S0 ; set standby and active temperatures for tool 1
                    G10 P1 X0 U1.6 Y0 Z0 S0 R0 ; set tool 1 offsets and temperatures. (increase U to move nozzle to the left)
                    M950 F2 C"out7" ; T1 Fan
                    
                    ; Create a tool that prints 2 copies of the object using both carriages'''
                    ;M563 P2 D0:1 H1:2 X0:3 F1:2 S"Duplication Mode" ; tool 2 uses both extruders, hot end heaters and fans, and maps X to both X and U
                    ;G10 P2 X0 Y0 U-205 S0 R0 ; set tool offsets and temperatures
                    ;M567 P2 E1:1 ; set mix ratio 100% on both extruders
                    
                    ; Create a tool that prints 2 mirrored copies of the object using both carriages'''
                    ;M563 P3 D0:1 H1:2 X0:3 F1:2 S"Mirror Mode" ;tool 3 uses both extruders, hot end heaters and fans, and maps X to both X and U
                    ;G10 P3 X0 Y0 U-465 S0 R0 ; set tool offsets and temperatures
                    ;M567 P3 E1:1 ; set mix ratio 100% on both extruders
                    
                    ; Temp sensors
                    M308 S7 Y"mcu-temp" A"MCU" ; configure sensor 5 as thermistor for MCU
                    M308 S3 P"124.temp0" Y"pt1000" R2180     A"Chamber Temp." ; Setup temp  0  on 1HCL at CAN address 50 as sensor 3  - sensing the chamber temperature
                    M308 S4 P"temp3" A"Blower Temp." Y"thermistor" T100000 B3950 ; define bed temperature sensor
                     ; LED lights
                    M950 P3 C"out3"
                    M42 P3 S1
                    
                    ; Pressure Advance
                    M572 D0:1 S0.02 ; Extruder Drive Number, Pressure advance amount
                    
                    ; Accelerometer
                    ;M955 P0 C"io4.out+io4.in" I05
                    
                    ; input shaping
                    ;M593 P"none" F99
                    M501 ; set the active parameters to those stored in sys/config-override.g
                    
                    M291 P"The printer is not homed, home now?" R"Homing" S3
                     G28```

                    Printers: a E3D MS/TC setup and a RatRig Hybrid. Using Duet 3 hardware running 3.4.6

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • dc42undefined
                      dc42 administrators @MaxGyver
                      last edited by

                      @maxgyver if the vibration occurs when both U and Y motors are driven from the main board, then I don't see how it can be a firmware issue, because in that configuration I can't see any way that the steps would get out of sync.

                      Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                      Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                      http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                      MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • martin7404undefined
                        martin7404
                        last edited by

                        I had the same isue with duet wifi and duex5- double makfoged IDEx machine. In the end it was fualty driver on wifi board. New duet wifi solved the isue

                        Muldex IDEX Duet2+Duex5
                        Custom CoreXY 600x400 Hemera , Duet3+Toolboard+1HCL closed loop
                        Sapphire Pro with Duet2, with closed-loop motors
                        custom high temp E3D tool changer with Duet2+Duex

                        fcwiltundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • fcwiltundefined
                          fcwilt @martin7404
                          last edited by

                          @martin7404 said in IDEX motor jitter:

                          I had the same isue with duet wifi and duex5- double makfoged IDEx machine. In the end it was fualty driver on wifi board. New duet wifi solved the isue

                          Since he was tried different drivers on the 6HC and on the three 1HCLs do you think a driver problem is likely?

                          Thanks.

                          Frederick

                          Printers: a E3D MS/TC setup and a RatRig Hybrid. Using Duet 3 hardware running 3.4.6

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • MaxGyverundefined
                            MaxGyver @dc42
                            last edited by

                            @dc42 said in IDEX motor jitter:

                            @maxgyver if the vibration occurs when both U and Y motors are driven from the main board, then I don't see how it can be a firmware issue, because in that configuration I can't see any way that the steps would get out of sync.

                            The vibrations are still present when both U and Y motors are driven from the main board.

                            @fcwilt x16 microstepping makes no difference

                            What would be the theoretical maximum achievable speed for a system with dual mark forged belts?
                            I am interested in the math behind this.

                            I am using GT2 belts with 20teeth pulleys.

                            MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • MaxGyverundefined
                              MaxGyver @MaxGyver
                              last edited by MaxGyver

                              @dc42

                              I managed to get a slow motion shot of the U axis jitter. This was captured with U and Y driven from the main board.

                              Video

                              fcwiltundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • fcwiltundefined
                                fcwilt @MaxGyver
                                last edited by

                                @maxgyver said in IDEX motor jitter:

                                @dc42

                                I managed to get a slow motion shot of the U axis jitter. This was captured with U and Y driven from the main board.

                                Video

                                You are referring to the left/right motion?

                                Yes, quite obvious.

                                And if you connect the X driver to the U axis hardware and the U driver to the X axis hardware the problem moves to the X axis hardware?

                                Frederick

                                Printers: a E3D MS/TC setup and a RatRig Hybrid. Using Duet 3 hardware running 3.4.6

                                MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • MaxGyverundefined
                                  MaxGyver @fcwilt
                                  last edited by MaxGyver

                                  @fcwilt said in IDEX motor jitter:

                                  And if you connect the X driver to the U axis hardware and the U driver to the X axis hardware the problem moves to the X axis hardware?

                                  I can test this tomorrow, but when I print with the secondary extruder on the U axis, the same left/right motion is present in X. So I suppose it is not a problem with the U axis hardware.

                                  dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                  • dc42undefined
                                    dc42 administrators @MaxGyver
                                    last edited by

                                    @maxgyver do X, Y and U axes have the same steps/mm?

                                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                    MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • MaxGyverundefined
                                      MaxGyver @dc42
                                      last edited by MaxGyver

                                      @dc42 said in IDEX motor jitter:

                                      @maxgyver do X, Y and U axes have the same steps/mm?

                                      Yes.
                                      I did also test different microstepping settings with no improvement.

                                      ; Drives
                                      M569 P0 S0 ; Drive 0.0/Z1 motor (rear left)
                                      M569 P1 S1 ; Drive 0.1/Z2 motor (rear right)
                                      M569 P2 S1 ; Drive 0.2/Z3 motor (front right)
                                      M569 P3 S0 ; Drive 0.3/Z4 motor (front left)
                                      M569 P4 S1 ; Drive 0.4/E1 motor
                                      M569 P5 S0 ; Drive 0.5/E2 motor
                                      
                                      ; Closed loop drives
                                      M569 P123.0 S0 ; X-Motor
                                      M569 P124.0 S0 ; U-Motor
                                      M569 P125.0 S0 ; Y1-Motor
                                      M569 P126.0 S1 ; Y2-Motor
                                      M569.1 P123.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 123 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                                      M569.1 P124.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 124 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                                      M569.1 P125.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 125 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                                      M569.1 P126.0 T2 C20 R125 I500 D0.1 H50 ; Configure the 1HCL board at CAN address 126 with a quadrature encoder on the motor shaft that has 20 steps per motor full step.
                                      
                                      ; Motion System
                                      M584 X123.0 Y125.0:126.0 Z0:1:2:3 U124.0 E4:5 ; set 4 Z drivers and add one U driver -> Must come earlier than M350,M906,M92, M201, M203, M208, M350, M566, M574, M667 and M669
                                      M350 X32 Y32 Z16 U32 E16:16 I1 ; Configure microstepping with interpolation
                                      M92  X160 Y160 Z640 U160 E400:400  ; Set steps per mm
                                      M203 X42000 Y42000 Z1800 U42000 E10000:10000; A40000 B40000 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
                                      M566 X600 Y600 Z200 U600 E600:600 ; set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
                                      M201 X30000 Y30000 Z500 U30000 E30000:30000 ;A6000 B6000 ; Set maximum accelerations (mm/s^2)
                                      M906 X2400 Y2400 Z1200 U2400 E900:900 I25 ;A300 B300 ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
                                      M84 S5 ; Set idle timeout
                                      M917 X50 Y50 Z50 U50 ; Set holding current in percent
                                      
                                      ; Kinematics
                                      M669 K11 Y1:-1:0:-1	; Matrix mapping for Axis - X:Y:Z:U
                                      ;M669 K11 X1:0:0:0 Y1:-1:0:-1 Z0:0:1:0 U0:0:0:1	; Matrix mapping for Axis - X:Y:Z:U
                                      ;M669 K1 X1:0:0:0 Y1:-1:0:-1 Z0:0:1:0 U0:0:0:1
                                      
                                      M671 X-41:495.5:495.5:-41 Y353:353:23:23 S10 ; lead screw positions and maximum allowed correction S in mm
                                      G90 ; send absolute coordinates...
                                      M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
                                      
                                      ; Axis Limits
                                      M208 X0 Y0 Z0 U0 S1 ; set axis minima
                                      M208 X405 Y323 Z350 U405 S0 ; set axis maxima
                                      
                                      dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • dc42undefined
                                        dc42 administrators @MaxGyver
                                        last edited by

                                        @maxgyver if the axes have identical steps/mm and microstepping, then the step pulses should be precisely synchronised. So I think it must be a mechanical problem.

                                        Is there any vibration when you move each of the 3 motors individually? You can use G91 followed by G1 H2 commands to test that.

                                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                        martin7404undefined MaxGyverundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • martin7404undefined
                                          martin7404 @dc42
                                          last edited by

                                          @dc42 In double makfoged he can move individually X and U but for Y he moves all the motors

                                          Muldex IDEX Duet2+Duex5
                                          Custom CoreXY 600x400 Hemera , Duet3+Toolboard+1HCL closed loop
                                          Sapphire Pro with Duet2, with closed-loop motors
                                          custom high temp E3D tool changer with Duet2+Duex

                                          dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • dc42undefined
                                            dc42 administrators @martin7404
                                            last edited by

                                            @martin7404 said in IDEX motor jitter:

                                            @dc42 In double makfoged he can move individually X and U but for Y he moves all the motors

                                            Yes but you can still command the motors to move individually, and see whether the resulting movement is smooth or not.

                                            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                            MaxGyverundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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