Fans vs Berd-Air



  • I'm building a custom delta printer which is based on KosselXL and D300VS with some personal changes.
    I was hoping people here could help me out, because I can't make up my mind about the cooling for the effector.
    My initial plan was to use 2 Noctua 40x10 fans, 1 for part cooling with a tusk and 1 for cooling the hotend (E3D v6).
    Now sitting with a bunch of Noctua fans, I start thinking about going for a Berd-Air instead.

    The reason why I want Berd-Air: Reduced weight on the Duet3d smart effector (minimize chance of failure during calibrating).

    The reason why I dont want Berd-Air: My goal was always to maintain a quiet design for the printer, hence I planned on using Noctua fans.

    I was hoping the community could help me out here, I don't want to compromise quality of the print just because I preffer a noise-free environment. But I dont know if either design is even better/worse than the other, as I've tested neither.


  • administrators

    @kerzal @mhackney has a lot of experience of this - he designed the "tusks" to use with a fan and also has one of our smarteffectors.



  • If you don't want the noise associated with an air cooling pump, there is an alternative that combines the benefits of an air pump without the noise, called the tusk air cooling. @mhackney has created good information on this: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2445660 http://www.sublimelayers.com/2017/03/the-tusk-fan-shroud.html

    I'm running a brushless air pump I sourced on aliexpress that came with silencer mufflers, as the the 'berd-air' pumps are brushed motors.

    A disadvantage with both the brushed and brushless motors, is they get extremely hot, hot enough to where you can't even touch the motor for more than a second.



  • I don't have any direct experience with the berdair yet. I have one but waiting on the tevo little monster to show up.

    But this might help you.
    https://youtu.be/fTR2MJftHD8
    It's a vid were a guy shows the noise of the pump at different levels.

    If you have the fans all ready go for it? Worst that can happen is you don't like it and get the berd air any way?



  • Great feedback here! Really nice to hear that there are silent cooling pump solutions, might try one of these at a later point. I'll go with fan cooling for now and reconsider Berd-Air if my print quality is less than expected.

    Currently I think the 270 degree circular fan duct found here (Thingiverse) will work well.



  • Hi I've tried an aquarium pump (not Berd air) and found it lacking. My solution was to find some very powerful but very light fans https://www.precisionpiezo.co.uk/product-page/sunon-blower-radial-fan-5v

    Which produce an impressive amount of air for their size. Designed for 5V but will take 12v in short bursts and can PWM.


  • Moderator

    There's always this option: https://drmrehorst.blogspot.ca/2018/01/the-mother-of-all-print-cooling-fans.html

    C-PAP machine blower and flexy hose.



  • @klcjr89 said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    I'm running a brushless air pump I sourced on aliexpress that came with silencer mufflers, as the the 'berd-air' pumps are brushed motors.

    Can you share its model or may be give a link to it?



  • @uvarovkv said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    @klcjr89 said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    I'm running a brushless air pump I sourced on aliexpress that came with silencer mufflers, as the the 'berd-air' pumps are brushed motors.

    Can you share its model or may be give a link to it?

    @uvarovkv
    24V brushless pump, choose the 'parallel' version for more flow rate, or choose 'series' version for more pressure: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kamoer-12V-24V-KVP8-PLUS-DC-Vacuum-Pump-Brushed-Brushless-DC-Motor-12V-24V-DC-Air/32795044820.html
    Silencer mufflers (set of two, one for the inlet, and one for the outlet): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kamoer-KVP8-Silencer-Reduce-Noise-Support-KVP8-Vacuum-Pump-Vacuum-Pump-Silencer-Noise-Reducer/32792621209.html

    Yes, the pump is kind-of pricey, but when you see the price of a brushed berd-air pump, which will have a much shorter lifetime, it isn't that bad.

    If you're in the USA, I have an extra 24V brushless pump I could sell, but I do not have an extra set of mufflers.



  • @klcjr89 Do you still wire the same? Need a diode for it?



  • @mysta No flyback diode needed for the brushless pump. The pump has its control circuitry inside it. You can still PWM it and treat it like any normal fan, although low PWM values don't work well. I run it at 255 PWM, as there are certain audible ranges at various lower PWM values that are bothersome.



  • @klcjr89 Nice, may grab one of those and use the other pump on one of my lesser used printers.



  • @klcjr89
    Yep. I saw this one, but I thinks that it is extremely overpriced for its objective. And it is not so effective like pump from 'berd-air' solution.

    The head from berd's pump provide alot of air 13 l/min and I could not find anything similar in this overall dimensions. So I want to try this head with some brushless motor like A3650, instead of noisy brushed JRK-555.



  • @uvarovkv said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    @klcjr89
    Yep. I saw this one, but I thinks that it is extremely overpriced for its objective. And it is not so effective like pump from 'berd-air' solution.

    The head from berd's pump provide alot of air 13 l/min and I could not find anything similar in this overall dimensions. So I want to try this head with some brushless motor like A3650, instead of noisy brushed JRK-555.

    You must've not read the specifications correctly, as the flow rate is just as good as a 'berd-air' pump, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. There is a 2 liter per min. difference in the reported Chinese specs for flow, and the berd-air is already overkill as is for flow rate. 🙂



  • yep it is actually slightly higher O/P to the 555 ones mind mine are not that noisy

    Video of mine at various levels and you will note at the start that there is a fan that is very noisy and is about to be swapped out and it is my board cooling fan and if you listen carefully you can hear the air coming out of the tube above the sound of the pump at around the 50% level.

    Doug

    edit for typo



  • Indeed, it is not as noisy as it is spoken about.


  • administrators

    @klcjr89 said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    If you're in the USA, I have an extra 24V brushless pump I could sell, but I do not have an extra set of mufflers.

    I would be very interested in this. What would you be asking? Feel free to email me directly about it.



  • @msquared said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    @klcjr89 said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    If you're in the USA, I have an extra 24V brushless pump I could sell, but I do not have an extra set of mufflers.

    I would be very interested in this. What would you be asking? Feel free to email me directly about it.

    What is your email sir?


  • administrators



  • Hi, if you're building a delta, it depends if you've planned to use a smart effector or not.

    With a smart effector the clearance is very limited, tusk system works well from the moment you put a fan that gives a good air pressure, but with the clearance it can be tricky. 2 blower oriented toward the head block with a sock on it did a better job but it's very space consuming.

    A big blower on the effector then plastic tubing passing from above to under toward a tusk system would be the best. But there's nothing on thingiverse like that yet, I've made a prototype but never ended it or even tested it.

    I've recently switched to a berdair system, the noise is not really a problem, but it's there.



  • Since I have no experience with the smart effector yet, could someone help me out for a sec?

    What I want to do right now, is to use two fan designs from thingiverse, each of them use 1x 40mm fan, so I can use my Noctua fans here. What I wonder is if the two designs listed below + 2x 40mm fans will work on the smart effector, or if it will generate too much weight and interrupt the auto-calibration?

    Part cooling
    Effector cooling

    I am really grateful for the discussions that happened in this thread, its all experiences that I try to absorb and incorporate into my ideas when improving my printer. Hope someone can give me a hint if the designs linked above has a chance of working. I haven't had the chance to print them yet, so I'm just trying to plan ahead.



  • @kerzal said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    What I wonder is if the two designs listed below + 2x 40mm fans will work on the smart effector, or if it will generate too much weight and interrupt the auto-calibration?

    No problemo. No enough weight to "wobble" the hotend to the point it'll engage false triggering. Even if it happens you can fine tune the trigger sensitivity of the smart effector.



  • @klcjr89 Which of the brushless pumps is best for this application? Series or parallel?



  • @benkay said in Fans vs Berd-Air:

    @klcjr89 Which of the brushless pumps is best for this application? Series or parallel?

    Either is more than enough for print cooling. I chose the parallel model for more flowrate, as the mufflers I bought reduce the flow rate. I have the mufflers installed in both the input and output for greater noise reduction.

    I hope these images help (the last image is the muffler specs).

    Pumps
    Mufflers



  • @klcjr89 Thanks, I think I'll go parallel too.

    What is the noise like generated by the air pump in use or parts cooling? I guess it runs at a relatively low PWM for this purpose....


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