Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks

deckingman

@v3dprinting It seems to me that from the outset you have made up your mind that it's a faulty board. You might be right but it's a very unusual Duet problem. I don't mean this in a bad way but I think you ought to be a bit more open minded. I bought one of the very first gen 2 boards and have been visiting these forums daily ever since. 99% of similar issues have turned out to be mechanical or some other non-Duet related problem. You could of course be one of those 1%.

Anyway, I think you should check the pulley screws and so forth, rather than dismiss any mechanical issues out of hand. Then try swapping the driver and motor as I suggested.

Also, if you think it is temperature related, try rigging up a fan to blow cold air over the board. That might help to prove it or otherwise.

V3DPrinting

@deckingman said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

Also, if you think it is temperature related, try rigging up a fan to blow cold air over the board. That might help to prove it or otherwise.

I already have one from the beginning with this board.
And on top I use the PSU fans to extract the hot air from the case and the PSU outside of the case with a custom duct.

As said I will check the belt and pulleys for Z axis, do the tests on drivers and steppers.

But I already done it for X and Y axis, without any finding and I still don't explain why I had some wobbling for the first symptoms and not anymore.

Other finding is, during the last two failed prints, I had grinding issues (with Bond tech QR 3.0), but the nozzle wasn't clogged and there was some room below the nozzle due to the inaccurate z layer height.

That's why I keep saying there is an electronic problem.

But don't be mistaken, the Duet is a great board and I am very happy with it.

deckingman

@v3dprinting said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

Other finding is, during the last two failed prints, I had grinding issues (with Bond tech QR 3.0), but the nozzle wasn't clogged and there was some room below the nozzle due to the inaccurate z layer height.

That's why I keep saying there is an electronic problem.

The extruder is grinding the filament and you think that is an electronic problem?

dc42

How stable is your power supply voltage? The M122 report will tell you the minimum and maximum voltage measured since power up or last time M122 was run.

V3DPrinting

@deckingman said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

The extruder is grinding the filament and you think that is an electronic problem?

Yes I do.
The bondtech extruders hardly grind filament. Nozzle wasn’t clogged at all and settings were correct. At least with the temperature defined when calibrated.

I suspect the feed rate not to be accurate and pushing too much filament. Exactly like with the Z axis making layers more than the one defined during the first 3 or 4 mm.

V3DPrinting

@dc42 said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

How stable is your power supply voltage? The M122 report will tell you the minimum and maximum voltage measured since power up or last time M122 was run.

This is the extract of the M122 done on Dec 6

Supply voltage: min 24.1, current 24.3, max 24.4, under voltage events: 0, over voltage events: 0

So it seems the PSU is working fine

V3DPrinting

@deckingman said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

@v3dprinting A couple of suggestions

I still think there could be a mechanical issue such as a loose pulley on the motor shaft. When you use level compensation during a print, maybe the bed moves down where it needs to but does not move back up again. That would explain the higher layers. I don't use any form of flatness or level compensation myself so I can't be sure but I believe that it tapers off. If that is the case, it would explain why the issue corrects itself when you get further into the print.

If you are absolutely sure the pulleys are all tight and there are no mechanical issue then:

I have checked all the Z axis motion and bearing : pulleys were properly tight (I remembered having fixed them with Loctite), belt was properly tensioned, no noticeable play in the leadscrew.

Try the Z motor on a different driver such as a spare extruder drive if you have one. This will tell if there is a fault with the stepper driver.

I have inverted Y and Z as Y was good and Z having problem generating the right layer height.
I have, of course, put the right M584 X0 Y2 Z1 E3:4 command, to remap the drivers.

Try a different motor if you can - maybe swap for one of the other axes. If the probelm with Z is cured but you get new problems on the axis you swapped motors with, then it's a motor issue.

Not a motor stepper issue.

I have printed another square 100 * 100, 10*10 section.
The print is very good from a dimensional point of view : from the previous tests I should have expected issues on Y and having Z fine, but the result is the part is within the usual tolerances (+0, +0,2mm).

The only issue is I have some wobbling on both X and Y axis. See pictures.

It might be of importance, but the printer had been swithed off since Dec 7th evening, and just powered up to load filament and start print.

So I confirm the issue is linked to the board.

As the printer had been standing idle 16hours, I will make a reprint to validate the issues are linked to the fact the printer is switched on.

The PSU is steady with no significant deviation since powered up 17 hours ago
See the M122 output done right now

10:42:20M122
=== Diagnostics ===
Used output buffers: 3 of 32 (11 max)
=== Platform ===
RepRapFirmware for Duet 2 WiFi/Ethernet version 1.21 running on Duet Ethernet 1.02 or later
Board ID: 08DDM-9FAMU-JW4S4-6JKD6-3SS6L-12Z3U
Static ram used: 16152
Dynamic ram used: 100464
Recycled dynamic ram: 2168
Stack ram used: 1224 current, 6472 maximum
Never used ram: 5816
Last reset 18:14:54 ago, cause: software
Last software reset at 2018-12-12 16:27, reason: User, spinning module GCodes, available RAM 7760 bytes (slot 3)
Software reset code 0x0003 HFSR 0x00000000, CFSR 0x00000000, ICSR 0x0441f000, BFAR 0xe000ed38, SP 0xffffffff
Error status: 0
Free file entries: 10
SD card 0 detected, interface speed: 20.0MBytes/sec
SD card longest block write time: 89.1ms
MCU temperature: min 29.0, current 31.2, max 35.8
Supply voltage: min 24.1, current 24.3, max 24.4, under voltage events: 0, over voltage events: 0
Driver 0: standstill, SG min/max 0/1023
Driver 1: standstill, SG min/max 0/1023
Driver 2: standstill, SG min/max 0/1023
Driver 3: standstill, SG min/max 0/1023
Driver 4: standstill, SG min/max not available
Date/time: 2018-12-13 10:42:19
Slowest main loop (seconds): 0.159806; fastest: 0.000050
=== Move ===
MaxReps: 4, StepErrors: 0, LaErrors: 0, FreeDm: 240, MinFreeDm 151, MaxWait: 1206640321ms, Underruns: 0, 0
Scheduled moves: 2, completed moves: 2
Bed compensation in use: mesh
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
=== Heat ===
Bed heaters = 0 -1 -1 -1, chamberHeaters = -1 -1
Heater 0 is on, I-accum = 0.0
Heater 1 is on, I-accum = 0.4
=== GCodes ===
Segments left: 0
Stack records: 1 allocated, 0 in use
Movement lock held by null
http is idle in state(s) 0
telnet is idle in state(s) 0
file is idle in state(s) 0
serial is idle in state(s) 0
aux is idle in state(s) 0
daemon is idle in state(s) 0
queue is idle in state(s) 0
autopause is idle in state(s) 0
Code queue is empty.
=== Network ===
Responder states: HTTP(1) HTTP(0) HTTP(0) HTTP(0) FTP(0) Telnet(0) Telnet(0)
HTTP sessions: 1 of 8
=== Network ===
State: 5
HTTP sessions: 1 of 8
=== Expansion ===

dc42

I see that you are still running firmware 1.21, which has been superseded first 2.0 and the 2.01, with 2.02 in the late Release candidate stage.

The patterning in your print looks like a motion or extruder issue to me. If it only happens after the printer has been running for some time, then it's probably temperature-sensitive. Does the patterning happen along both arms of the L, or only one?

V3DPrinting

@dc42 said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

I see that you are still running firmware 1.21, which has been superseded first 2.0 and the 2.01, with 2.02 in the late Release candidate stage.

Before making any upgrade, I'd like to understand the problem.

The printer was running 1.21 since May, 24 by 7 or so without any issue.
Issues have appeared without any change.
And after checking, it is not related to a mechanical issue, nor PSU, nor Steppers

The patterning in your print looks like a motion or extruder issue to me. If it only happens after the printer has been running for some time, then it's probably temperature-sensitive.

Yes, the patterning appears on yesterday print though the printer was cold, just switched on after 5 days off. That was the first issue noticed a couple of weeks ago

Does the patterning happen along both arms of the L, or only one?

Yes it is on both arms.
Yes I presume it is an extrusion issue : inconsistent feeding.

Because the firsts tests done with the L, a week ago, haven't showed patterning, but inconsistent Z layer, it is not mechanical.

It also might be a driver issue, but having switched Y and Z and having the patterning, I believe it is more global to the board.

dc42

There is no electronic component failure i can think of that would cause that sort of patterning to appear when the printer has been running for a while, except just possibly a partial stepper driver failure. I think this is very unlikely, and you have already swapped the axis driver outputs. Have you tried swapping the extruder driver output, to eliminate the (small) possibility that the extruder stepper driver is faulty?

Far more likely IMO is that as the printer heats up, mechanical friction increases somewhere. Have you lubricated the linear rails, linear bearings etc. in your printer since you built it? Another user of this forum reported a similar issue, which he solved by lubrication.

If the stepper motor temperatures are rising appreciably, there is also the possibility that thermal expansion of the rotor of one of the motors is causing the rotor to make contact with the status, causing friction.

HTH David

V3DPrinting

@dc42 said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

There is no electronic component failure i can think of that would cause that sort of patterning to appear when the printer has been running for a while, except just possibly a partial stepper driver failure. I think this is very unlikely, and you have already swapped the axis driver outputs. Have you tried swapping the extruder driver output, to eliminate the (small) possibility that the extruder stepper driver is faulty?

I will do the switch when the test print currently running is finished.

Remember I had severe Z motion issues last week, but still unable to reproduce it, so not only the extruder stepper driver is involved but also the Z stepper driver for the same type of issues.

So that's why I insist on the fact that the issue is more global.

Far more likely IMO is that as the printer heats up, mechanical friction increases somewhere. Have you lubricated the linear rails, linear bearings etc. in your printer since you built it? Another user of this forum reported a similar issue, which he solved by lubrication.

I lub every week for the X Y gantry with oil and every 3 months for the Z axis with Magnalube grease.

If the stepper motor temperatures are rising appreciably, there is also the possibility that thermal expansion of the rotor of one of the motors is causing the rotor to make contact with the status, causing friction.

HTH David

Some technical questions about the architecture of the board :
Is the clock global for the board on the processor ?
Same for the impulsion generator

Thanks for your feedback
Best
David

V3DPrinting

I have done a second test print. Still the same L shape, same filament, same gcode.

The print is very similar to the previous one.

Except some under extrusion at the end of the print (the X letter is worse on the second print)

and the first layer have less wobbling, but it looks like the layers are a bit more than the last layers.

Both X and Y arms have the same pattern.

I will permute E0 and E1 drivers and reprint the same test.

dc42

@v3dprinting said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

Some technical questions about the architecture of the board :
Is the clock global for the board on the processor ?
Same for the impulsion generator

The WiFi and Ethernet modules have their own clocks, but other than that there is a single 12MHz crystal oscillator, which the processor multiplies up to 120MHz. Step pulses are generated by the processor using a counter driven by this 120MHz clock with a prescaler of 128.

V3DPrinting

I have remapped the Y and Z axis to their normal assignation, as the problem was not linked to the drivers nor steppers.

I have swapped E0 and E1 drivers and done a test print.

From a dimensional perspective. no problem, it's very similar to the ones done since yesterday.

From the surface aspect perspective, still the same first layers that looks bigger and patterns, but the patterns are less prominent.

I will remap the extruders drivers to the normal and do a print using the second extrusion train (which I only use doing specific materials or nozzle diameter.
So if there is a mechanical issue on the extruder it will be revealed.

Dougal1957

Just a thought but are you using a recent version of Cura by any chance I have heard on another forum that a bug has been introduced that sets the filament diameter to 2.85 and one version didn't activate the change if you set it to 1.75) and also I believe a few are having variable extrusion issues with the latest one. this is hearsay mind as I don't and probably never will use Cura

V3DPrinting

@dougal1957 said in Multiple issues with Duet Ethernet since 2 weeks:

Just a thought but are you using a recent version of Cura by any chance I have heard on another forum that a bug has been introduced that sets the filament diameter to 2.85 and one version didn't activate the change if you set it to 1.75) and also I believe a few are having variable extrusion issues with the latest one. this is hearsay mind as I don't and probably never will use Cura

No, I use S3D for those prints.
Though, last week, I have done a test with Cura 3.6, but the result was exactly the same.

I haven't upgraded to S3D 4.1 for the moment, as I would like to understand were the issue is.

Dougal1957

@v3dprinting it was just a thought

V3DPrinting

@dougal1957
I use Cura for my 3 Ultimaker (3 and S5) and I don't have issues with the extrusion setup.
Works pretty well and for some features way better than S3D.

Dougal1957

@v3dprinting I believe it was V 3.5.1 that had the issue this details the bug

V3DPrinting

I have done the last test, using the second extrusion train which is not used usually.

The test print is good from a dimensional perspective.

I still have some patterns on the print, like in all the previous tests.
But on top, there is some sort of periods of the print without the pattern.

There is an inconsistent extrusion across the print

I have printed all the tests with different spools of filament, having the issues. All from quality manufacturers (FormFutura, ColorFabb). All from spools already used with successful prints.

The Z axis issue haven't been reproduced since yesterday, but might reappear as no explanation was found.

So I believe there is something wrong with the board.

I've got an hypothesis : the oscillator is having some derivation and / or the processor is not generating the right form factor.
But it is not constant over the time, from the very first symptoms, might be periodic.

Given the steps per mm M92 X160.47 Y160.11 Z1600 E505.7:505.7, a 10% deviation of the oscillator (which is huge !) will have an impact equivalent to :
160 steps on Z so 100 microns
50 steps on E0 or E1

So it would be very visible on Z and Extruders, but not that much on X and Y.
If there is a period or so in the deviation, it might not create an issue in X an Y.

Thanks for your feedbacks !