Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification

coolice2020

@Veti said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

@coolice2020 said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

3Dmark BL touch +

ts made by antclabs

closed loop/non loop stepper motor (axis movements): PANdrives PD57-1-1378-TMCL or Trinamic PANdrives PD42-3-1241-TMCL -- BOTH includes CoolStep,SpreadCycle,StallGuard2,StealthChop and SensOstep and 12V

12V and Stealthchop is not a good combination.
Why do you want to use closed loop drivers, and not the integrated drivers in the duet3?

Meanwell power supply: UHP-2500-24

@coolice2020 said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

2x direct drive extruder with normal stepper motor, so (dual head setup): Titan Aqua - 12V

here is a water cooled version of the bmg. its dual gear compared to the titan.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000183071905.html

TMC5160 stepper drivers

not compatible with closed loop drivers.

BIG thank you for your quick reply!

May I ask:

why the 12V and Stealthchop is not a good combination? I had chosen to have overall 12V as all components are running on 12V. But it seems it was a mistake from the steppers point of view, if I understood well?
You are 100% right on the the meanwell. May I ask your suggestion on the Watts for a system like this?

Veti

@coolice2020
there is a good video by alex kenis about this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVs2d-TOims

for the psu see
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Choosing_the_power_supply#Section_Total_power_needed

coolice2020

@T3P3Tony said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

@coolice2020

You can't use those closed loop drivers because they only support TMCL or CANopen - neither of which is compatible with Duet 3.

What will the USB camera be connected to - you mention wanting to use this without the Pi. Either switch to an IP cam or connect the USB camera to the pi.

Safety heat monitoring on head/bed to cut power off

The firmware detects some heating faults but, especially for the very high power AC bed) it would be wise to include a thermal fuse. I am not sure if equivalent thermal fuses exist that work for hotend temperatures.

BIG thank you for your quick reply and help!

Allow me to ask your help to understand this driver issue, as even though I was trying to do thorough search, it is a bit complex subject. Also forgive me if I ask dumb question:

My plan was to use top-end stepper motors preferably with integrated driver solutions (such as CoolStep,SpreadCycle,StallGuard2,StealthChop and SensOstep).
If i understand you well, Duet 3 can work with both closed loop and not closed loop stepper motors, BUT only if the stepper motors does not include these trinamic drivers, because they conflict with Duet 3? OR you say, that the TMCL / CANopen protocols not compatible with Duet, so e.g. Trinamic PD57-1-1161 ( [https://www.trinamic.com/products/drives/details/pd57-60-x-1161/](link url) ) would work even if these functions (StallGuard2, CoolStep, SpreadCycle and SensOstep) included ?
Can you recommend a high-end closed loop stepper motor, which in your opinion super silent and has low vibration, optimal current usage, etc what these features promise, but can work with Duet 3 and you have good experience with it?

Veti

@coolice2020
closed loop stepper motors have their own drivers.

for the duet 3 in order to use external stepper drivers you need the expansion breakout board, which as far as i know is still in development.

on the duet 2 you can connect them on the expansion header.

coolice2020

@Veti said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

@coolice2020
there is a good video by alex kenis about this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVs2d-TOims

for the psu see
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Choosing_the_power_supply#Section_Total_power_needed

Awesome video indeed!

Also huge help on the PSU calculation, thanks !!

coolice2020

@Veti said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

@coolice2020
closed loop stepper motors have their own drivers.

for the duet 3 in order to use external stepper drivers you need the expansion breakout board, which as far as i know is still in development.

on the duet 2 you can connect them on the expansion header.

The PANdrives PD57-1-1378-TMCL (https://www.trinamic.com/products/drives/details/pd57-60-86-x-1378/) indeed closed loop. I was hoping to work with this, as believe in the benefit of the close loop/servo.
BUT
The other one I was planning (aslo has a much better cost/value ratio while still top-end) is the PANdrives PD42-3-1241-TMC (https://www.trinamic.com/products/drives/details/pd42-x-1241/), which in my understanding NOT closed loop one.
This is why I ask from Tony in my reply if the real problem is the close-loop or the integrated features or the TMC/CANopen protocols, as the Trinamic PD57-1-1161 (https://www.trinamic.com/products/drives/details/pd57-60-x-1161/) should be an answer for that problem too.
I would aim to Duet 3 as I am hoping to build a top-end 3D printer.

Veti

@coolice2020 said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

The other one I was planning (aslo has a much better cost/value ratio while still top-end) is the PANdrives PD42-3-1241-TMC (https://www.trinamic.com/products/drives/details/pd42-x-1241/), which in my understanding NOT closed loop one.

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Choosing_and_connecting_stepper_motors

The Duet boards use bipolar stepper motor drivers. This means you can use stepper motors suitable for bipolar drive, which have 4, 6 or 8 wires

however that one supports canbus, which i believe is on the todo list to be supported

@T3P3Tony can you comment on that

deckingman

@coolice2020 IMO, closed loop steppers on a 3D printer area complete waste of time and money. Mainly because any positional errors are almost always due to mechanical defects such as belts stretching or slipping, pulleys slipping on shafts, "flexing" of components or any number of other factors. That is to say, positional errors are almost always caused by some sort of a disconnect between the motor and the print head and very rarely caused by missed steps or positional errors of the motor itself. The only way a closed loop system would be of benefit is by using separate linear encoders to measure the actual position of the print head, and feed that signal back to motor driver.

coolice2020

@deckingman said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

@coolice2020 IMO, closed loop steppers on a 3D printer area complete waste of time and money. Mainly because any positional errors are almost always due to mechanical defects such as belts stretching or slipping, pulleys slipping on shafts, "flexing" of components or any number of other factors. That is to say, positional errors are almost always caused by some sort of a disconnect between the motor and the print head and very rarely caused by missed steps or positional errors of the motor itself. The only way a closed loop system would be of benefit is by using separate linear encoders to measure the actual position of the print head, and feed that signal back to motor driver.

Thank you for the heads-up understood!

This leaves me with 2 stepper motors as mentioned above or at least one without those problematic protocols. So, the question left: if that one i suitable or not for Duet 3 to control.

Veti

non of the motors you posted are bipolar drive.

coolice2020

@Veti

Understood! So, on one side, I check if they have any bipolar stepper motor, which still has these features.

On the other hand, could you recommend me please:

high-end stepper motor with similar feature set you can recommend ?

OR

high-end stepper motor and the add-ons required for Duet 3 to have these features within the Duet 3 board itself?

OR

a controller board can handle these drives ? (dont shoot me pls, I am in love with Duet 3 just trying to understand all options I have) ?

Many Many many thanks!

Veti

@coolice2020 said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

high-end stepper

i dont understand what you mean by high end steppers.

there are high quality stepper motors
for example moons have got some good reviews
https://forum.prusaprinters.org/forum/original-prusa-i3-mk3s-mk3-user-mods-octoprint-enclosures-nozzles-.../stepper-motor-upgrades-to-eliminate-vfa-s-vertical-fine-artifacts/

Can you specify your requirements for the stepper. what holding torque do you need etc.

the duet 2 can handle external stepper drivers. or like i said you have to wait for the duet 3 to support them as well.

coolice2020

Based on Veti advise I finally decided on the E3D online stepper motors able to andled by the Duet 3 directly.
I will have 24V instead of 12V setup.
I will have a much moderate meanwell psu.
Replaced the BL touch with Duet IR probe for auto levelling.
Based on Tony advise, I am on research for the thermal fuse for the heated bed.
I will use Pi to take all networking processing stress away from Duet 3, (but keep using Web control), an dthe usb cam will attached to that too.
I reworked the water cooling for being push-pull with 4 large 800rpm fans, able to andled by the Duet 3 directly.

BIG thanks for all your patience and help, truly appreciated, keep you posted how the build went or in case I ran into any trouble/question !

coolice2020

Hi Again,

I am working hard to put together a final wiring diagram to be confirmed, but I ran into some questions, allow me kindly to ask them.

(I always try to search the forum and the docwiki before I ask, but if I am confused, better to be safe than sorry)

Background:

The Keenovo heatbed I had chosen has built in thermistor.
I had chosen a proper SSR.
I had found the wiring diagram for the Duet 3 6HC + SSR + Heatbed as well as the mainboard wiring digramm as well.

Question:

If I understood well, Duet 3 6HC use the thermistor value to know the actual temperature of the bed.
But do I need a separate thermostat attached to Duet 3 to control, or thats will be handled by Duet 3 natively, OR I need a TEMP DAUGHTERBOARD OR .. ?

Many thanks for your time and help!

Veti

most of the time the thermistors on those keenovo are B3950 Thermistor.
those can be connected directly to the duet3

coolice2020

@Veti said in Kind help on req Duet3d hardware based on specification:

B3950 Thermistor

As far as I see, it has: NTC 100K thermistor buil-in. This one works also ?

And back to my main question, no additional HRDW needed to control the temperature, so not only read it, but control it as well ?

Veti

@coolice2020

a B3950 Thermistor is a specific NTC 100K thermistor.

for ssr control please read
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Choosing_a_bed_heater#Section_Bed_heater_driven_using_a_Solid_State_Relay

coolice2020

@Veti Big thanks, and I did read the SSR article you pointed to me already, I even have the SSR wiring diagram, so allow me to rephrase myself:

Having only a built-in thermistor and a properly applied SSR, is enough for Duet 3 to control on/of and specific celsius temperature, right ?

(So basically all not needed watts will be "burned" at SSR, simple is that if I understand well the concept behind)

Veti

@coolice2020

a ssr will turn the power on or off as needed. like a switch. if the switch is off no power flows.
the thermistor reads the temperature.

as long as the temperature is below the requests temperature the duet will let the power flow.
if its above the requested temperature , the power is turned off.

coolice2020

@Veti SUPER CLEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will add a fuse too, just as suggested in docwiki.

Big thank you !!!!!

(PS: i mark this for solved now, until i have new question. )