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    Extruder motor stops during print…

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    • ofloveandhateundefined
      ofloveandhate
      last edited by

      another thought: should i prefer absolute or relative extrusions? i have only been using relative through this whole process.

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      • ofloveandhateundefined
        ofloveandhate
        last edited by

        i am starting to think there is a bug in the reprap firmware, in the part that processes relative extrusion distances. i printed the same model, same supports and all settings, last night. only change was that in simplify3d, i switched to absolute extrusion.

        ok, there was another difference that i should have not let happen, and that was that i printed this one without the https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2567240 bottom corner plates.

        i am re-printing the same file now. if it fails again, then we know that the relative / absolute distances had nothing to do with my problem. if it succeeds, we have stronger evidence that it is a firmware bug.

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        • ofloveandhateundefined
          ofloveandhate
          last edited by

          i am now convinced that there is a bug in the firmware dealing with relative extruder distances

          another success with absolute extruder distances, print time was 36h 21m

          video:
          https://youtu.be/7BCaq2k_oJk

          pic:

          a little problem at the top. caused due to top layers being set to 0 for that process in simplify3d. (6 processes used total, to reduce the amount of plastic used by varying the infill %)

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          • dc42undefined
            dc42 administrators
            last edited by

            Most Duet users - including me - only ever use relative extrusion distances.

            Did you turn off "Allow zeroing of extrusion distance" in S3D? You should do that when using relative extrusion, although AFAIK it doesn't matter if you leave it enabled.

            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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            • ofloveandhateundefined
              ofloveandhate
              last edited by

              zeroing was indeed allowed in s3d, both in my relative and absolute prints.

              brad at ultibots indicated that he thinks people mostly use absolute, where you think it is relative…

              i have > 70 hours of absolute distance printing with no errors now, so am growing in confidence that i was experiencing something problematic with relative. i think some stress-test kinds of gcode files are merited. i was thinking that cylindrical circles or ellipses with ever-smaller faces might be useful, and mix in the zeroing.

              are there known smallest distances that the extruder should be asked to perform? i read the code in the reprap firmware, and nothing immediately jumped out at me as risking underflow or rounding error. i was however concerned in GCodes.cpp at lines 2044 or so,

              const float moveArg = eMovement[0] * distanceScale;
              float requestedExtrusionAmount;
              if (gb.MachineState().drivesRelative)
              {
                requestedExtrusionAmount = moveArg;
              }
              else
              {
                requestedExtrusionAmount = moveArg - virtualExtruderPosition;
                virtualExtruderPosition = moveArg;
              }
              
              

              that in one case, the value of virtualExtruderPosition is adjusted, and not in the other. is it assumed to be always 0 if relative? where is it adjusted?

              i just want to know exactly how to manifest this problem, as i am not content with absolute distances as a workaround.

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              • garyd9undefined
                garyd9
                last edited by

                Taking a WAG based solely on the code you posted:

                If doing relative extrusion, the "virtualExtruderPosition" variable is meaningless (simply because it's not needed: It's a variable only used to calculate requestedExtrusionAmount if and only if absolute extrusions.)

                If relative, then the value of "E" is the amount that is extruded in this step.

                If absolute, then the value of "E" (moveArg) is the amount that is extruded in this step and all the previous steps combined. So, in order to know how much THIS step extrudes (requestedExtrusionAmount), you have to subtract "all the previous steps combined" (virtualExtruderPosition) from moveArg. At that point, "all the previous steps combined" (virtualExtruderPosition) needs to be updated to reflect the added amount THIS step extrudes (requestedExtrusionAmount.)

                That could be written any of the following ways, and all would be accurate:

                virtualExtruderPosition = virtualExtruderPosition + requestedExtrusionAmount;

                virtualExtruderPosition += requestedExtrusionAmount;

                virtualExtruderPosition = moveArg; // because moveArg == (virtualExtruderPosition + requestedExtrusionAmount)

                "I'm not saying that you are wrong - I'm just trying to fit it into my real world simulated experience."

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                • ofloveandhateundefined
                  ofloveandhate
                  last edited by

                  gotcha.

                  do you have references to any other places people have had problems with relative extrusion and zeroing on?

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                  • ofloveandhateundefined
                    ofloveandhate
                    last edited by

                    the drama continues.

                    i printed a surface called "tobel", and it failed, even with absolute extruder distances. we can rule out relative as the culprit.

                    added a heatbreak out of lexan, with a fan blowing directly across the duet.

                    the print still failed.

                    here is what it is supposed to look like:

                    i think we can rule out heat as the source of the problem. because the two prints failed at such a similar place, i am hopeful that i can develop a short gcode file that fails every time i run it. then, hopefully, someone else can also try it, and fail.

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                    • ofloveandhateundefined
                      ofloveandhate
                      last edited by

                      my journey continues. i have re-wired the extruder motor, used a heat shield and fan to cool the duet board, and played with various slicer settings. nothing has worked – i continue to experience failures.

                      is there an alternate firmware i can load on the board?

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                      • whosrdaddyundefined
                        whosrdaddy
                        last edited by

                        Think about it, if this was a "firmware bug", this forum would be swamped with threads similar as yours, but it isn't ;).
                        Having read your thread @ultibots, I think you are having ordinary nozzle jams.
                        You use 185 deg, which seems to me a bit on the cold side, I use 205 for my PLA prints and never had any issue.

                        Can you share the STL for above model? I Can do a test print if you want…

                        Cheers,
                        Kris

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                        • ofloveandhateundefined
                          ofloveandhate
                          last edited by

                          the absence of other bug reports is not evidence of no problem. to the contrary, my persistent problem is evidence of a problem. its not conclusive, i agree, but this problem has happened to me at least 19 times, and has persisted despite nearly 3 months of publicly documented problem-solving efforts, including swapping motors, re-wiring, heat shielding and actively cooling the duet, swapping duet boards, upgrading firmware, and twiddling nearly all possible slicer options (which shouldn't matter anyway because no gcode should do this).

                          what is left? power supply / fluctuations, too low a temp, a firmware bug, some machine setting like acceleration or max speeds (again pointing to a firmware bug), or ??? i appreciate you helping me explore the remaining options, because i am about out of ideas.

                          i do agree that few people with the problem makes it harder to tell whether this is indeed a firmware bug. but i point you to the famous case of the intel floating point arithmetic bug: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug . "1 in 9 billion floating point divides with random parameters would produce inaccurate results." to put it succinctly,

                          absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

                          furthermore, another d300vs user commented in my thread on the ultibots forum that they experienced a very similar problem. so, i am not alone in experiencing this problem. was their problem mine? we'll likely never know…

                          sure, i'll try a higher temp. i must try everything, because 1) right now, i can only print trinkets on my machine, 2) i am a scientist and mathematician so i have to know what the solution is, and 3) i genuinely hope that it is not a firmware bug, but instead a simple matter of my temperature being too low. we'll see...

                          here is a link to a folder of gcode files, all of which have failed for me at least once. they are set up for 1.75mm filament with a 0.4mm diameter tip on a delta bot with the origin at the center. if i can get even one other person to run my gcode, it'll do a long way to helping rule out a firmware bug. repeated success on anothes duet?
                          my problem. another person gets a fail? clearly not my fault, points to firmware. another strong piece of evidence would be what happens if i use another firmware, so looking to install something else and give it a try.

                          http://danibrake.org/gcode/failing/

                          the 40% file takes like 5 hours, and i have had it fail on me 3/13 times. the 60% takes like 14 hours, and has failed 1/1 times. the 100% takes even longer, and has failed 4/4 attempts. if you want a sure fail, try the 100. the model is also posted to the same location.

                          • http://danibrake.org/gcode/failing/tobel.3mf

                          • http://danibrake.org/gcode/failing/tobel_small_40.gcode

                          • http://danibrake.org/gcode/failing/tobel_small_60_norobust.gcode

                          • http://danibrake.org/gcode/failing/tobel_100.gcode

                          i am still on firmware 1.20, per forum recommendation. here is my config file:

                          ; Configuration file for UltiBots D300 V-Slot Delta 3D Printer
                          ; version 1.0 for RepRapFirmware version 1.18.1
                          
                          ; Communication and general
                          M111 S0                             	; Debug off
                          M550 PD300VS				; Machine name and Netbios name (can be anything you like)
                          M551 XXXXX				; Machine password (used for FTP)
                          ; *** If you have more than one Duet on your network, they must all have different MAC addresses, so change the last digits
                          M540 P0xBE:0xEF:0xDE:0xAD:0xFE:0xFF 	; MAC Address
                          ; Wifi Networking
                          M552 S1					; Enable Wifi by default
                          
                          M555 P2                           	; Set output to look like Marlin
                          
                          ; *** Uncomment if you have the optional PanelDue display
                          ;M575 P1 B57600 S1			; Communication parameters for the PanelDue
                          
                          G21                                 	; Work in millimeters 
                          G90                                	; Send absolute positional coordinates...
                          M83                                 	; ...but relative extruder moves
                          
                          ; Axis and motor configuration
                          M569 P0 S0				; Drive 0 goes forwards (X tower)
                          M569 P1 S0				; Drive 1 goes forwards (Y tower)
                          M569 P2 S0				; Drive 2 goes forwards (Z tower)
                          M569 P3 S1				; Drive 3 goes forwards (extruder 1)
                          
                          M574 X2 Y2 Z2 S1			; Set endstop configuration (all endstops at high end, active high)
                          
                          ; *** The homed height is deliberately set too high in the following - these will be adjusted with delta auto-calibration
                          M665 R216.411 L379.00 B140 H434.314 X0.101 Y0.295 Z0.0	; Set delta radius, diagonal rod length, printable radius and homed height
                          ;H461.071
                          M666 X1.79 Y0.20 Z-1.99			; Endstop offset adjustments, these will be adjusted with delta auto-calibration
                          
                          M350 X64 Y64 Z64 E16 I1			; Set microstepping to 32 for X, Y and Z and 16 for extruder stepper with interpolation
                          M92 X800 Y800 Z800			; Set axis steps/mm
                          M906 X1000 Y1000 Z1000 E400		; Set motor currents (mA)
                          M201 X1000 Y1000 Z1000 E1000		; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
                          M203 X20000 Y20000 Z8000 E20000	; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
                          M566 X400 Y400 Z400 E400		; Maximum instant speed changes mm/minute
                          
                          ; Fans
                          M106 P1 T50 S255 H1			; Set hotend heatsink FAN1 thermostatic control at 50°C
                          
                          ; Thermistors
                          M305 P0 T100000 B3950 R4700 L54 H-97	; Kapton bed heater thermistor
                          M305 P1 R4700 T100000 B4725 C7.06e-8	; E3D V6 Semitec GT-104 thermistor cartridge
                          
                          ; Heater configuration
                          M307 H0 B1							; Heater 0 (bed) use bang-bang control		
                          M307 H1 A512.9 C267.0 D9.0 B0		; Heater 1 (hot end) use PID
                          
                          ; Tool definitions
                          M563 P0 D0 H1                       	; Define tool 0, the extruder
                          G10 P0 S0 R0                        	; Set tool 0 operating and standby temperatures
                          M92 E700	                       	; Set extruder steps per mm
                          
                          ; Z probe and compensation definition
                          ; Change "H25" to "H3" AFTER commissioning your printer
                          M558 P4 X0 Y0 Z0 H5 I1 			; FSRs with JohnSL board Z probe behaves as a switch and is not used for homing any axes
                          G31 X0 Y0 Z-0.2 P500			; MUST READ: http://www.sublimelayers.com/2017/05/fdffsd.html
                          
                          T0					; Select tool 0, the hot end
                          M501					; Load config-override.g
                          
                          

                          thanks for helping me, i genuinely appreciate your time

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                          • whosrdaddyundefined
                            whosrdaddy
                            last edited by

                            May I ask why the steps for the extruder (M92) are missing?
                            Also the M92 I1 parameter is a bit pointless as it only works for 16x microstepping…

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                            • dc42undefined
                              dc42 administrators
                              last edited by

                              @whosrdaddy:

                              May I ask why the steps for the extruder (M92) are missing?
                              Also the M92 I1 parameter is a bit pointless as it only works for 16x microstepping…

                              He has a separate M92 E700 command later in config.g. The I1 parameter on the M350 command will work for the E drives because they are set to x16 microstepping.

                              But you have contributed many useful replies on this forum, so please don't let this stop you from contributing! I make mistakes in replies too.

                              Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                              Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                              http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                              • ofloveandhateundefined
                                ofloveandhate
                                last edited by

                                @dc42 my pronouns are she/her/hers, please

                                here is the current default config.g from https://github.com/UltiBots/D300VS/blob/master/Firmware/171016-D300VS-1.19.2.zip. please confirm it contains the same error. i believe it does.

                                ; Configuration file for UltiBots D300VS Delta 3D Printer
                                ; version 1.0 for RepRapFirmware version 1.19.2
                                
                                ; Communication and general
                                M111 S0                             	; Debug off
                                M550 PD300VS				; Machine name and Netbios name (can be anything you like)
                                M551 XXXXX				; Machine password (used for FTP)
                                ; *** If you have more than one Duet on your network, they must all have different MAC addresses, so change the last digits
                                M540 P0xBE:0xEF:0xDE:0xAD:0xFE:0xEF 	; MAC Address
                                ; Wifi Networking
                                ; M552 S1					; Enable Wifi by default
                                
                                M555 P2                           	; Set output to look like Marlin
                                
                                ; *** Uncomment if you have the optional PanelDue display
                                ;M575 P1 B57600 S1			; Communication parameters for the PanelDue
                                
                                G21                                 	; Work in millimeters 
                                G90                                	; Send absolute positional coordinates...
                                M83                                 	; ...but relative extruder moves
                                
                                ; Axis and motor configuration
                                M569 P0 S0				; Drive 0 goes forwards (X tower)
                                M569 P1 S0				; Drive 1 goes forwards (Y tower)
                                M569 P2 S0				; Drive 2 goes forwards (Z tower)
                                M569 P3 S1				; Drive 3 goes forwards (extruder 1)
                                
                                M574 X2 Y2 Z2 S1			; Set endstop configuration (all endstops at high end, active high)
                                
                                ; *** The homed height is deliberately set too high in the following - these will be adjusted with delta auto-calibration
                                M665 R211.75 L360.31 B140 H445.00 X0.0 Y0.0 Z0.0	; Set delta radius, diagonal rod length, printable radius and homed height
                                M666 X0.0 Y0.0 Z0.0			; Endstop offset adjustments, these will be adjusted with delta auto-calibration
                                
                                M350 X64 Y64 Z64 E16 I1			; Set microstepping to 32 for X, Y and Z and 16 for extruder stepper with interpolation
                                M92 X800 Y800 Z800			; Set axis steps/mm
                                M906 X1000 Y1000 Z1000 E500		; Set motor currents (mA)
                                M201 X1000 Y1000 Z1000 E1000		; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
                                M203 X20000 Y20000 Z20000 E3600		; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
                                M566 X1200 Y1200 Z1200 E300		; Maximum instant speed changes mm/minute
                                
                                ; Fans
                                M106 P1 T50 S255 H1			; Set hotend heatsink FAN1 thermostatic control at 50°C
                                
                                ; Thermistors
                                M305 P0 T100000 B3950 R4700 L54 H-97	; Kapton bed heater thermistor
                                M305 P1 R4700 T100000 B4725 C7.06e-8	; E3D V6 Semitec GT-104 thermistor cartridge
                                
                                ; Heater configuration
                                M307 H0 B1							; Heater 0 (bed) use bang-bang control		
                                M307 H1 A512.9 C267.0 D9.0 B0		; Heater 1 (hot end) use PID
                                
                                ; Tool definitions
                                M563 P0 D0 H1                       	; Define tool 0, the extruder
                                G10 P0 S0 R0                        	; Set tool 0 operating and standby temperatures
                                M92 E780	                       	; Set extruder steps per mm
                                
                                ; Z probe and compensation definition
                                ; Change "H25" to "H3" AFTER commissioning your printer
                                M558 P4 X0 Y0 Z0 H25 I1 		; FSRs with JohnSL board Z probe behaves as a switch and is not used for homing any axes
                                G31 X0 Y0 Z-0.25 P500			; MUST READ: http://www.sublimelayers.com/2017/05/fdffsd.html
                                
                                T0					; Select tool 0, the hot end
                                M501					; Load config-override.g
                                
                                
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                                • ofloveandhateundefined
                                  ofloveandhate
                                  last edited by

                                  upping the temp by 25° to 210 still yielded a failure last night.

                                  a big lingering question i have – if my browser disconnects from the printer while printing, is the gcode console still guaranteed to log correctly? that is, how do i know that i am not experiencing some other error, and simply not seeing it in the log the next time i connect?

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                                  • dc42undefined
                                    dc42 administrators
                                    last edited by

                                    A delta with 16-tooth pulleys, GT2 belts, 0.9deg motors and x16 microstepping (like mine usually is) has 200 steps/mm. So if you set x64 microstepping in M350 and use M92 after that, 800 steps/mm would be correct.

                                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                                    • ofloveandhateundefined
                                      ofloveandhate
                                      last edited by

                                      i have stock motors on my d300vs, so should be 0.9. let's double-check the extruder motor (PG35L Micro Extruder Motor)

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                                      • ofloveandhateundefined
                                        ofloveandhate
                                        last edited by

                                        see this d300vs forum post

                                        http://forum.ultibots.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=358&p=2075&hilit=microstepping#p2075

                                        for a brief discussion of the stepping modes.

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                                        • whosrdaddyundefined
                                          whosrdaddy
                                          last edited by

                                          @ofloveandhate, can you share the STL of the object you want to print, just want to try printing it (but I don't have a delta :))

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                                          • ofloveandhateundefined
                                            ofloveandhate
                                            last edited by

                                            link is already above (extracted the link from the folder just now). it's in 3mf format.

                                            http://danibrake.org/gcode/failing

                                            i use simplify3d for the manually-placed supports. my same slicer settings work fine for the same model, printing on my taz6 and rostock max v2. i only have problems with my duet-powered machine.

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