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    Periodicity of ringing

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    s-curve ringing
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    • burtoogleundefined
      burtoogle
      last edited by

      I should add that the ringing is only visible "downstream" of the sharp corners.

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      • dc42undefined
        dc42 administrators @burtoogle
        last edited by

        @burtoogle, thanks for those figures. Is this when printing a cube or similar object, so that the ringing has been excited by the deceleration of another 40mm/sec move in the perpendicular direction? If so, please can you repeat the print using the same speed but with accelerations of 1600 and then 1030 and see what effect that has on the amplitude of the ringing.

        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

        burtoogleundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • burtoogleundefined
          burtoogle @dc42
          last edited by

          @dc42 , yes, that's measured on a rectangular object with reasonably long sides so it will be going "full tilt" before the corner. I will do as you requested although I think I know what the answer will be, the ringing reduces in amplitude and the corners bulge more. What I can't remember is whether the ringing frequency changes with lower acceleration, I wouldn't have thought it would so I will do the experiment anyway.

          dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • dc42undefined
            dc42 administrators @burtoogle
            last edited by

            @burtoogle, I don't expect the ringing frequency to change but I do expect the amplitude to change in a nonlinear way. How much will depend on how accurately you measured the ringing period, your XY jerk setting (which I omitted to ask for), and how good my understanding is of what is going on.

            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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            • burtoogleundefined
              burtoogle
              last edited by

              Hi @dc42 , jerk is set to 300. I printed some of the same object using acceleration of 1600 and I cannot see any ringing (but the corner is fatter). I haven't bothered to try using 1030.

              0_1530909492513_ringing.jpg

              dragonnundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • dragonnundefined
                dragonn @burtoogle
                last edited by

                @burtoogle can you try jerk values at 600-700?

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                • burtoogleundefined
                  burtoogle @dragonn
                  last edited by

                  @dragonn said in Periodicity of ringing:

                  @burtoogle can you try jerk values at 600-700?

                  With acceleration back at 3000?

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                  • dragonnundefined
                    dragonn
                    last edited by

                    Yeah, I think then you should see ringing. I think wee need to do some tests on other kinematics then delta. I will try this weekend to do some tests.

                    burtoogleundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • burtoogleundefined
                      burtoogle @dragonn
                      last edited by

                      @dragonn said in Periodicity of ringing:

                      Yeah, I think then you should see ringing. I think wee need to do some tests on other kinematics then delta. I will try this weekend to do some tests.

                      Hold on, I'm confused now. I could see ringing with acceleration at 3000 anyway. Do you really mean jerk of 600 with acceleration of 1600. I wish you could be more precise.

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                      • dragonnundefined
                        dragonn
                        last edited by

                        Oh, sorry for misunderstanding. In this situation it would makes sens to test high jerk with less acl so for example 1600 acl and jerk 600

                        burtoogleundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • burtoogleundefined
                          burtoogle @dragonn
                          last edited by

                          @dragonn said in Periodicity of ringing:

                          Oh, sorry for misunderstanding. In this situation it would makes sens to test high jerk with less acl so for example 1600 acl and jerk 600

                          OK, doing it now...

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                          • burtoogleundefined
                            burtoogle
                            last edited by burtoogle

                            The print using jerk 650 and accel 1600 looks (as best as I can tell) identical to the print using jerk 300 and accel 1600. However, a factor here could be that because I am using a flex3drive extruder, the E jerk/accel are low (jerk 10, accel 400).

                            dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • dc42undefined
                              dc42 administrators @burtoogle
                              last edited by dc42

                              @burtoogle, by my calculations there is a critical acceleration value calculated as (print_speed - jerk)/ringing_period. For you this works out as (40-5)/0.025 =1400. At this acceleration, or sub multiples of it such as 700, there should be almost no ringing. At twice this acceleration or more there will be a lot of ringing. At 2/3 of this acceleration there should also be noticeable ringing. That is why I suggested you try 1030 (before I was allowing for jerk; 930 would be the value allowing for jerk).

                              This calculation only considers the contribution of acceleration to ringing, not the contribution of jerk, and only ringing that occurs when one print move follows another.

                              Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                              Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                              http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                              mrehorstdmdundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Phaedruxundefined
                                Phaedrux Moderator
                                last edited by

                                Interesting. I'll have to do some testing. I've been having a tough time eliminating ringing at anything over 300 or so acceleration.

                                Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

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                                • mrehorstdmdundefined
                                  mrehorstdmd @dc42
                                  last edited by

                                  @dc42 Does this apply to cartesian mechanisms or is it a delta-only phenomenon? I can test on my corexy ...

                                  https://drmrehorst.blogspot.com/

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                                  • dc42undefined
                                    dc42 administrators @mrehorstdmd
                                    last edited by

                                    @mrehorstdmd said in Periodicity of ringing:

                                    @dc42 Does this apply to cartesian mechanisms or is it a delta-only phenomenon? I can test on my corexy ...

                                    It should apply to Cartesian and CoreXY too, however there may be different periods of ringing in the X and Y directions because of the differing amounts of mass being moved.

                                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                                    • RCarlyleundefined
                                      RCarlyle
                                      last edited by

                                      Interesting concept, though I'm not exactly sure what @dc42 is suspecting is happening. I do want to say that if you're doing corner quality tests with accel and jerk changes, you need to be using an extruder with much higher effective jerk/accel settings so the extruder limits aren't ever controlling corner speed. (EG calculate out your linear filament speed through the print moves.)

                                      AFAIK, the jerk / velocity-jump to zero at the end the segment prior to the corner are the primary cause of visible ringing, because that's what creates the transverse oscillation you see in the segment after the corner. Decel, jerk out of the corner, and accel into the next segment should be much smaller effects.

                                      Different kinematics and trajectories are going to make a difference though... even on a Cartesian machine, you have slightly different stuff happening when you do a turn from 0 degree heading to 90 degree heading, versus 45 degree heading to 135 degree heading. The motors and linear rods see different forces in these cases, even though most firmware treats these as equivalent.

                                      dc42undefined burtoogleundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • dc42undefined
                                        dc42 administrators @RCarlyle
                                        last edited by

                                        @rcarlyle said in Periodicity of ringing:

                                        AFAIK, the jerk / velocity-jump to zero at the end the segment prior to the corner are the primary cause of visible ringing, because that's what creates the transverse oscillation you see in the segment after the corner. Decel, jerk out of the corner, and accel into the next segment should be much smaller effects.

                                        According to my calculations, the critical value is the ratio of the deceleration time of the previous move to the period of the ringing that is causing the trouble. The configured jerk reduces the acceleration time, but otherwise doesn't have much effect unless you have troublesome high frequency resonances too.

                                        If P is the period of the ringing and T is the deceleration time of the previous move, then I calculate that if T is significantly less than P but the velocity change is significant, you will get severe ringing and there is nothing you can do about it. S-curve acceleration will make it worse. When T = P the ringing is almost completely cancelled out if you use constant acceleration, but will still be bad using S-curve acceleration (allowing for using double the peak acceleration to get the same acceleration time). When T reaches 1.3P then S-curve acceleration starts to be better. The higher the ratio of T to P, the greater the advantage of S-curve acceleration.

                                        I need to do some beer-glass tests to confirm these theoretical results. If they are confirmed, then for many printers, controlling the acceleration time will be more effective than using S-curve acceleration.

                                        Different kinematics and trajectories are going to make a difference though... even on a Cartesian machine, you have slightly different stuff happening when you do a turn from 0 degree heading to 90 degree heading, versus 45 degree heading to 135 degree heading. The motors and linear rods see different forces in these cases, even though most firmware treats these as equivalent.

                                        Yes, however I think the time spent accelerating and decelerating will still be the most important factor. Another complication is that on a Cartesian machine the X and Y axis ringing frequencies will be different.

                                        I have also been working out the stiffness of motors and belts in order to work out what ranges of ringing period are inevitable, which in turn affects the accelerations that can be used.

                                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                        Phaedruxundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • burtoogleundefined
                                          burtoogle @RCarlyle
                                          last edited by

                                          @rcarlyle said in Periodicity of ringing:

                                          I do want to say that if you're doing corner quality tests with accel and jerk changes, you need to be using an extruder with much higher effective jerk/accel settings so the extruder limits aren't ever controlling corner speed. (EG calculate out your linear filament speed through the print moves.)

                                          That's what I thought, the flex3drive extruder likes low values so it's probably not the best bit of kit for these tests.

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                                          • daveidmxundefined
                                            daveidmx
                                            last edited by daveidmx

                                            My default profile has bulging corners but almost no visible ringing, but I'm happy to run some tests for you with more aggressive settings. (Looking forward to the new motion planner!)

                                            Can you give me a table of test values you'd like to see? For reference, I'm on a CoreXY with a default profile of 180 jerk, 3600 accel, 60mm/s external perimeters. With these values, I have no observable ringing on the X-axis, and (if I squint hard and use a flashlight) 0.6mm wavelength on the Y for an 0.01s period, assuming it was up to speed at that point.

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