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Heating error on heater 1

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Tuning and tweaking
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  • undefined
    LeonMF
    last edited by 19 Sept 2016, 13:22

    I was actually just coming here to post on this. Many things are very polished on the Duet Wifi's firmware but the temperature system has given me the most problems.

    I can usually do a print without a temperature fault on heater 1, even with my massively oversized fan blowing at full speed on my heater block. (I have a 12V fan and 24V system. It turns out you can't regulate speed through a buck converter. I'll be gettting a new fan soon). Basically, I believe my autotuned with M303 hot end to be pretty well tuned.

    However, I can fault the heater about 80% of the time by letting the hot end cool half way back to room temperature and then re-enabling the hot end to go back to temp.

    Is it possible to relax these checks with M codes? I appreciate the intent but this shouldn't happen so often that I created a reset heaters gcode!

    On a similar note, I tried to see if I could do better with manual PID tuning but it's impossible to tune a PID loop if the heater faults every time you exceed 10 degrees of the setpoint!

    Current: Railcore II ZLT w/Duet 3 and Hemera hot end.
    Retired: Robo3D R1,BI V2.5 Delta updated to BerryBot magnets, bespoke carriages and Duet Ethernet, M3D Promega;

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    • undefined
      appjaws
      last edited by 19 Sept 2016, 14:02

      @dc42:

      Yes it should recover quickly, that is one of the things I changed in the C revision of 1.15. I have this down as an issue to investigate for the 1.16 firmware version.

      Mine is taking too long to recover, even with the fan set to 50%.

      Does it make any difference with tuning at 0.45 or 0.2 as an example to the way the heater will recover?

      Do I need to re tune using different parameters?

      appjaws - Core XYUV Duet Ethernet Duex5
      firmware 3.5.0-rc.4 Web Interface 3.5.0-rc.4
      Ormerod 1-converted to laser engraver, Duet wifi
      OpenSCAD version 2024.03.18
      Simplify3D 5.1.2

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      • undefined
        dc42 administrators
        last edited by 19 Sept 2016, 15:23

        The PWM factor you use when tuning should not make much difference to the heater model it deduces, or to how fast the temperature recovers.

        Don't forget that you can revert to manual PWM parameters if you think that temperature control worked better for you in firmware versions 1.14 and earlier. Leave the M307 command in config.g but put a M301 command after it with your chosen PWM parameters.

        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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        • undefined
          StephenRC
          last edited by 19 Sept 2016, 18:44

          Another thing to try, turn on the fan to 100% and then run a M303.

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          • undefined
            LeonMF
            last edited by 21 Sept 2016, 01:38

            At this point, 2/3 of my prints are failing because of hot end heater errors. I know my heater is over powered and autotune doesn't handle this situation all that well. However, I couldn't even manually tune because the heaters fault out while trying to tune.

            Currently, it faults out when heating up, it faults out when the fan kicks in, it even can fault out mid print.

            I get that the firmware is setup for maximum safety but is there a user configurable way to widen the safety margin or disable it until the tuning tools get to where they can handle my setup?

            (In case I come across as too complainy here, I do appreciate the development effort!)

            Current: Railcore II ZLT w/Duet 3 and Hemera hot end.
            Retired: Robo3D R1,BI V2.5 Delta updated to BerryBot magnets, bespoke carriages and Duet Ethernet, M3D Promega;

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            • undefined
              bot
              last edited by 21 Sept 2016, 02:00

              @LeonMF:

              At this point, 2/3 of my prints are failing because of hot end heater errors. I know my heater is over powered and autotune doesn't handle this situation all that well. However, I couldn't even manually tune because the heaters fault out while trying to tune.

              Currently, it faults out when heating up, it faults out when the fan kicks in, it even can fault out mid print.

              I get that the firmware is setup for maximum safety but is there a user configurable way to widen the safety margin or disable it until the tuning tools get to where they can handle my setup?

              (In case I come across as too complainy here, I do appreciate the development effort!)

              Can you revert to a version of RRF before the heating changes were made, so you can use the legacy PID?

              *not actually a robot

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              • undefined
                dc42 administrators
                last edited by 21 Sept 2016, 06:26

                @LeonMF:

                At this point, 2/3 of my prints are failing because of hot end heater errors. I know my heater is over powered and autotune doesn't handle this situation all that well. However, I couldn't even manually tune because the heaters fault out while trying to tune.

                Currently, it faults out when heating up, it faults out when the fan kicks in, it even can fault out mid print.

                I get that the firmware is setup for maximum safety but is there a user configurable way to widen the safety margin or disable it until the tuning tools get to where they can handle my setup?

                (In case I come across as too complainy here, I do appreciate the development effort!)

                Leon, if your heater faults when heating up, that should be easy to fix by increasing the dead time and/or reducing the gain in the M307 parameters.

                To auto tune an over-powerful heater, you currently need to use a low P parameter in the M303 command, perhaps as low as 0.1.

                If it faults when the print cooling fan comes on, that means the temperature has dropped by more than 10C. I am considering making this figure configurable in a future firmware version; but isn't a temperature drop of that size going to cause extrusion problems anyway?

                HTH David

                Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                • undefined
                  LeonMF
                  last edited by 21 Sept 2016, 13:14

                  The problem is that the last 3 prints have failed due to heater faults whether the fan was on or not! Currently, my temperature hovers right at temperature but then there will be a quick excursion that immediately return to temperature. Honestly, I'm not sure why it has gone downhill so badly. I'm going to double check my wiring and try retuning tonight.

                  There are three things I'd like to see, which would dramatically help people like me:
                  1. User configurable temperature band.
                  2. User configurable time out of band. I will make the argument that a brief excursion should not fault the heater. A web console warning wouldn't be a bad idea, though.
                  3. When the heater faults, kill the print. It's not doing me any good running if it isn't extruding.

                  Thanks!

                  Current: Railcore II ZLT w/Duet 3 and Hemera hot end.
                  Retired: Robo3D R1,BI V2.5 Delta updated to BerryBot magnets, bespoke carriages and Duet Ethernet, M3D Promega;

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                  • undefined
                    dc42 administrators
                    last edited by 21 Sept 2016, 14:13

                    A brief temperature excursion does not fault the heater. The error has to be maintained for more than 5 seconds before a fault is registered.

                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                    • undefined
                      LeonMF
                      last edited by 21 Sept 2016, 15:11

                      Interesting… I've never been able to catch it. I'll investigate and report back if I get a better understanding.

                      Current: Railcore II ZLT w/Duet 3 and Hemera hot end.
                      Retired: Robo3D R1,BI V2.5 Delta updated to BerryBot magnets, bespoke carriages and Duet Ethernet, M3D Promega;

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                      • undefined
                        dc42 administrators
                        last edited by 21 Sept 2016, 15:25

                        If you do manage to catch it, p!ease report the text of the initial heater fault message if you can.

                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                        • undefined
                          LeonMF
                          last edited by 22 Sept 2016, 00:29

                          The log says "Temperature Excursion too large".

                          It turns out that this problem, at least was due to a noisy thermistor. Probably from me zip tying the thermistor to the heater cartridge without enough slack for strain relief. Thanks for all your help!

                          I'll know later tonight if this fixed it.

                          Current: Railcore II ZLT w/Duet 3 and Hemera hot end.
                          Retired: Robo3D R1,BI V2.5 Delta updated to BerryBot magnets, bespoke carriages and Duet Ethernet, M3D Promega;

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                          • undefined
                            SimonRafferty
                            last edited by 16 Jan 2017, 11:10

                            I've also had a few issues with this. My heater is over-powered, but it was intentional in the hope that I could print fast and be able to reach higher temperatures (300C). The auto-tune worked brilliantly and it prints with no errors so long as the print temperature is below 220. If I increase it to 260 (or higher), it will fault mid print usually with the temperature going too high.

                            At higher temperatures, I think the thermal inertia is such that an excursion can last more than 5 sec. This usually happens on fiddly bits where the material flow reduces.

                            If it were possible to relax the thermal fault detection (perhaps with a strongly worded warning about fire, death & destruction?) I think it might help this.

                            On the fire front, I have a DIY thermal fuse. A short length of solder mounted a couple of cm above the heater. Even at 300C, it does not melt the solder - but either a flame or a temperature above 400 will. It required a bit of experimentation to get the separation right - but it seems to work. If the solder link breaks, it kills the mains via a SSR.

                            I suspect that an off the shelf thermal fuse with poor thermal contact to the heater would do just as well.

                            Si

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                            • Jackalundefined
                              Jackal
                              last edited by 16 Jan 2017, 11:18

                              @SimonRafferty
                              I believe this is what you need
                              http://reprap.org/wiki/G-code#M570:_Configure_heater_fault_detection

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                              • undefined
                                SimonRafferty
                                last edited by 2 Feb 2017, 22:51

                                Thanks Jackal - you're a star!

                                Si

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