Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS
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Thanks all. Looks like I turned down plain 3DLAC / hairspray too soon for PETG.
On the latter note the similarities between the smell of hair spray and 3DLAC has led me to but an £0.89 300ml can of 'Ultra Hold' hairspray to try after the 3DLAC runs dry!
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My main printer uses PrintBite, which I find works well for both PLA and PETG. On another printer I print PLA on heated uncoated glass, and on a third I print PLA on cold blue tape.
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PEI with PVA glue stick works for me with pretty much everything. For things that stick to the PEI too well, the glue stick helps to work like a release agent and when the bed has cooled a bit I just get the edge of a blade under and it comes up pretty easy. For things that don't stick well or tend to warp like ABS, etc the glue stick seems to give it enough stick. I use a spray of 90% Isopropanol to refresh it after a print and it lasts for several prints before it gets cloudy or too much gets pulled up with the print. Then I either add another layer of glue stick or I'll just clean the bed off and start again.
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I use PEI for everything. PETG may stick too well though, I haven't had a chance to print it on a non-flexible bed surface yet, so I'm not sure about that. Like Phaedrux says though, you can always use PVA glue to prevent this. ABS and PLA work fine without.
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PEI works really well for most materials
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@antlestxp said in Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS:
PEI works really well for most materials
+1
Flexible sticks a little bit too good to PEI so I rub a little bit of baby powder to reduce the first layer adhesion.
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I'd tried PEI and didn't get along with it. After one build with PLA it was permanently marked with the outline of the print.
Edit: PrintBite+ (Flex3D) is the surface which seems very durable but I am getting significant first layer issues both with the original RepRapPro IR sensor and dc42s sensor. I'm not sure if this is sensor or surface originated issue. It's mounted on a sheet of glass. PEI is direct on heater, although I can see mysrlf ripping that off and using a removable glass bed on that machine too.
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@doctrucker said in Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS:
I'd tried PEI and didn't get along with it. After one build with PLA it was permanently marked with the outline of the print.
maybe you did the same stupid thing i did. not realizing that there was a protective plastic film on the pei.
could not get good adhesion. and the print left a mark in the plastic like a damaged surface. -
I'm using PrintBite+ as well over a 6mm MIC-6 aluminum bed. In the beginning, I was also using @dc42's IR probe but over time, the PrintBite has lifted microscopically from the bed giving it a mottled appearance that the IR probe translated into bed surface variations of up to 0.250mm. Last month I finally moved to a Precision Piezo Orion and without touching the PrintBite, am now getting variations of only 0.005 - 0.025mm
The PrintBite itself is the best surface I've used. Rarely I'll use a little glue stick around the edges of an ABS or Nylon part but for the most part, no other prep is used.
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good night,
I take advantage of google translator services to better express what I want to say.
I've been battling for a long time with print surfaces. From an MK2 base of aluminum with lacquer, borosolate glass with or without lacquer, abs glue or stick.
The first attempt to make a removable base was with a sheet of ferritic steel attached to the base with a series of magnets. On that sheet, not very flexible but enough to remove the pieces, I put an original buildtak sheet. He did not convince me, although at that time it was the best option I tried.
It lasted little and the price, for a non-professional use, was excessive. I started testing Aliexpress printing surfaces. The only advantage was the price. But any error of first layer that lowered the head caused that the sheet was broken when retiring (or to try) the piece.
It must be said that I use DC42 IR Probe to adjust the two Z motors and to level the print surface (G32 and G29). That is why there were errors in the first layers depending on the material / color of the print surface.
Reading David's instructions at miscsolutions I tried to test the PEI sheet that has received such good reviews everywhere. So I bought a kit from Aliexpres and a sheet of magnet from Amazon.The first thing I tried was the PEI directly on the flexible surface of steel. Too much reflection The IR sensor gave too irregular surfaces and each first layer had to be adjusted by Z Babystepping.
I leave the image to see how the IR sensor detected the surface as it arrives from the vendor.
The result was not very good and I tried to paint the metal surface before sticking the PEI sheet. I gave two "layers" of paint with a permanent marker then I attached the PEI sheet on top. Unlike other sheets, the ones I have used are very fine, in the order of 0.125mm. and they are not manipulable as mentioned in the Miscsolutions website that I have indicated before. The result was not encouraging, on the contrary. The permanent marker was excessively bright and the IR sensor detected the surface in a more erratic way as can be seen in the next image.
Finally I bought the paint spray-on barbecue & stove paint recommended on the Miscsoutions website and all the problems were finished. I gave two layers of paint with two separations between them. I cured them in the oven at 170 ° C for two hours, I stuck the PEI sheet and the result is in sight.
It must be said that between the tests, there has been no correction of the height in Z. My printer is a Hypercube Evolution with a micro switch on Z- and the IR sensor to level the surface and that all the tests I did same day, since I have several sheets of flexible steel and I have been able to mount the three configurations to see the differences.
Regarding printing features, I have found that PETG does not need any adjustment. First layer at 15-20mm/s, bed temperature between 50-70 ° C and filament at the temperature marked by the manufacturer.
ABS I have not tried it yet, until it gets hotter and can have the ventilated house I will not print with ABS.
As for PLA and other compounds of PLA (Glow in the Dark), I must say that I raise de bed temperature of the first layer between 75-80ºC so that the first layer adheres well. In first complicated layers, which have many profiles, shapes, hard angles and holes, it helps a lot of lacquer, but lowering the speed does not need lacquer.I usually print at 0.15mm layer height with a first layer of 0.2mm
The best of this system is that you can remove the print surface outside the base and remove the piece by flicking the steel sheet with PEI.
I first tried with high temperature magnets, which needed a base machining to be able to reliably put them. Then I went to the magnetic sheet and, for now, holds 115 ° C without losing magnetism.
Sorry for the extension of the answer and for any mistake that that has passed the google translator reef, but I think it's good to share what has cost me time and money to get.For days I have printed without any problem in the first layer and removing the pieces by simple bending of the base. Great!!
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@gtj0 said in Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS:
I'm using PrintBite+ as well over a 6mm MIC-6 aluminum bed. In the beginning, I was also using @dc42's IR probe but over time, the PrintBite has lifted microscopically from the bed giving it a mottled appearance that the IR probe translated into bed surface variations of up to 0.250mm.
FWIW you can now buy black PrintBite, which should avoid the problems that the IR sensor has with transparent surfaces.
Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com -
@dc42 said in Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS:
FWIW you can now buy black PrintBite, which should avoid the problems that the IR sensor has with transparent surfaces.
Didn't know that. I don't relish trying to take off the existing 500x500mm sheet though and it took 3 months to get it in the first place. I do like the IR probe better just from a mounting perspective so maybe I'll have to see what Jason's lead time is now.
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@dc42 said in Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS:
FWIW you can now buy black PrintBite, which should avoid the problems that the IR sensor has with transparent surfaces.
I am using back PrintBite+. I don't think your sensor likes it. It's mounted on a 3mm glass bed. I was doing a four point bed level check but based on the reply from @1ri I will try mesh probe.
@1ri thanks for your post. I will read that more carefully soon!
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@gtj0 said in Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS:
Didn't know that. I don't relish trying to take off the existing 500x500mm sheet though and it took 3 months to get it in the first place. I do like the IR probe better just from a mounting perspective so maybe I'll have to see what Jason's lead time is now.
As said above I am using plain black PrintBite+. I do like it but am struggling with the first layer problems. The variation is enough to go from nozzle completely on the bed to the bead not touching the bed when depositing a 0.24mm layer thickness.
I will try mesh probe and also direct to hairsprayed glass.
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@doctrucker said in Bed Surface Recomendations - PETG, PLA, ABS:
As said above I am using plain black PrintBite+.
oops, I missed that in your first post, sorry.
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I have used pei sheet for about 3 years. Then I started printing petg. At times petg would destroy the pei sheet by sticking too good. So I gave up on it and went back to printing on glass. Used gluestick on glass but hairspray works so much better. Also hairspray is easy to clean up with water and paper towel or wash in the sink.
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I have been using geckotek ezstick hot for quite a while, works great with abs (low to no warping), pla, nylon (no glue stick needed), flexibles (no glue stick or other barrier layer print onto the surface cold comes off easily with a spatula), I haven't tried petg with it yet but I would expect it to work just fine.
I decided to try after I saw taulman recommended it for their nylons. I will say that you do have to replace it after a while as it will wear out but the sheet I have been using in my flashforge creator pro has easily lasted double or more the amount of prints the sheets are rated for, It also seems to work well with dc43 it probe as well.
Another plus is its easy to cut to size with a razor blade/box cutter after applying to your build plate, unlike the pei sheet I put on my 1st Gen rostoc max. -
Having a 600mm diameter Delta (24" in barbarian units) limits your options. I've not seen any commercial surfaces like PEI or Bite made in this size. Very very rare, if any. The print bed is approx. 6mm thick. It is sold as a glass tabletop, approx. $40 USD, on Amazon.
Therefore, I use glass w/hairspray for everything. Thorough cleaning with water or alcohol between sprays really helps. I've never seen anything approaching a chip.
Probe is a smart effector; no problems with glass. Calibration is in my start g-code, for every print.
If something REALLY doesn't want to come off the bed, allowing it to cool to 40C and a spatula usually gets it... if not that, then just allow everything to cool to room temp (20C or so) and somewhere on the way you'll hear a loud pop as the different expansion (ok, contraction) rates of glass vs. plastic work their magic.
That contraction trick: It helps that this is a big printer and I print big things. (Right next to it, there is a Prusa Mk3S for printing smaller things. It, of course, has the flexible steel bed with whatever coating Joseph decided. Alcohol cleaning, EVERY time, is the key to that one. Works fantastically well.)
I have some 6" wide (150mm) Kapton tape, and I occasionally use this on the glass with water spray and a squeegee to apply the tape itself, in parallel strips. Not really for any specific material, more when the mood strikes me.
Delta / Kossel printer fanatic
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@danal It's not cheap, but Zoro has your size. I bought a 12x24" sheet, cut 1/2 of it down to fit my delta, and used the same piece on glass for 3+ years. I still use it occasionally, but have primarily switched to thinner adhesive PEI on a flex steel sheet from TH3D. Yeah, it isn't round, but works great for the price.
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