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    • kelchm
      kelchm last edited by

      One of the most restrictive aspects of the Duet Wifi is it's size. Depending on the printer design it can be very difficult to retrofit a significantly large controller (Printrbots come to mind). It would be great to see a Duet board in a footprint similar to something like a Azteeg X5 Mini.

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      • dc42
        dc42 administrators last edited by

        What functionality would you like us to drop in order to save space?

        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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        • kelchm
          kelchm last edited by

          @dc42:

          What functionality would you like us to drop in order to save space?

          Ideally we wouldn't want to lose any features 🙂

          It would be very exciting to see a Duet board which has no integrated stepper drivers bundled with a daughter board similar to the Duex5. The boards could then be stacked vertically to fit into compact printers quite easily.

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          • Fickert
            Fickert last edited by

            Would it be possible to create a stacked board?

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            • elmoret
              elmoret last edited by

              @kelchm:

              @dc42:

              What functionality would you like us to drop in order to save space?

              Ideally we wouldn't want to lose any features 🙂

              I don't see how that would be possible, the board seems to be pretty tightly packed as it is. Comparing to the X5 mini isn't really a fair comparison, as the Duet has 1 more stepper driver, more IO (50 pin connector, PanelDue, SD card, PT100 expansions), beefier connectors, etc.

              @kelchm:

              It would be very exciting to see a Duet board which has no integrated stepper drivers bundled with a daughter board similar to the Duex5. The boards could then be stacked vertically to fit into compact printers quite easily.

              This would probably add $10-20 to the cost for everyone, since it would mean doing two PCB fab/assembly processes instead of one. Also it would mean introducing a failure point at the stack's connectors. It would also mean the board is taller for everyone, for some printer designs height is the limiting factor. Not saying it isn't possible, but there would be some drawbacks to consider. Cost is probably the biggest one.

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              • DjDemonD
                DjDemonD last edited by

                Just thinking out loud and in reference to a discussion occurring on google deltabots group, if some sort of Can bus type system was employed could not the stepper drivers be mounted on the motors? This would make the controller much smaller, and we can all find space for a stepstick sized board on the side of our motors.

                Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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                • dc42
                  dc42 administrators last edited by

                  @DjDemonD:

                  Just thinking out loud and in reference to a discussion occurring on google deltabots group, if some sort of Can bus type system was employed could not the stepper drivers be mounted on the motors? This would make the controller much smaller, and we can all find space for a stepstick sized board on the side of our motors.

                  We're planning to use CAN bus in the future.

                  Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                  Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                  http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                  • T3P3Tony
                    T3P3Tony administrators last edited by

                    kelchm, just looking at the X5, for a smaller board would loosing the second extruder stepper, the expansion connector, dropping down to a lower number of microsteps (say 64 or 128 rather than 256) and a lower max current be fine? So for example it would be great for a single extruder desktop size printer but not for a multi extruder large format printer that some are building

                    www.duet3d.com

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                    • sigxcpu
                      sigxcpu last edited by

                      @DjDemonD:

                      Just thinking out loud and in reference to a discussion occurring on google deltabots group, if some sort of Can bus type system was employed could not the stepper drivers be mounted on the motors? This would make the controller much smaller, and we can all find space for a stepstick sized board on the side of our motors.

                      So instead of 4 wires you want to carry at least 6 of them to each motor? Let's not talk about enable, TMC SPI and so on. Using a serial connection (SPI, CAN) to the "stepstick" will still need "logic" voltage and ground, protocol wires AND motor voltage wires. I think the printers as they are today are a big mess of wires anyway. Doing the stepstick remote will just increase this mess.

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                      • dc42
                        dc42 administrators last edited by

                        @sigxcpu:

                        So instead of 4 wires you want to carry at least 6 of them to each motor? Let's not talk about enable, TMC SPI and so on. Using a serial connection (SPI, CAN) to the "stepstick" will still need "logic" voltage and ground, protocol wires AND motor voltage wires. I think the printers as they are today are a big mess of wires anyway. Doing the stepstick remote will just increase this mess.

                        This is some way in the future, but we're looking at using one RJ11 or RJ45 connector to connect 2 twisted pairs, plus a 2 core power cable to carry VIN power. A typical slave board would drive something like 2 motors, 2 heaters, 2 fans, 2 temperature sensors, and 2 inputs for endstops or other devices. Daisy chaining slave boards would be supported. Users who need to drive a lot of motors would benefit most.

                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                        • DjDemonD
                          DjDemonD last edited by

                          @sigxcpu:

                          @DjDemonD:

                          Just thinking out loud and in reference to a discussion occurring on google deltabots group, if some sort of Can bus type system was employed could not the stepper drivers be mounted on the motors? This would make the controller much smaller, and we can all find space for a stepstick sized board on the side of our motors.

                          So instead of 4 wires you want to carry at least 6 of them to each motor? Let's not talk about enable, TMC SPI and so on. Using a serial connection (SPI, CAN) to the "stepstick" will still need "logic" voltage and ground, protocol wires AND motor voltage wires. I think the printers as they are today are a big mess of wires anyway. Doing the stepstick remote will just increase this mess.

                          That's a fair comment but 3d printers have a lot of wires as they have a lot of electronics in them. I could very happily have an rj45 with cat6 cable to each motor, it would look much less messy than it does now with 4 loose wires to each motor. But what you do get is potentially a controller board of around half the size. A lot of space is taken up by driver chips, capacitors etc..

                          A lot of duetwifi users seem to be using bigger more expensive printers where fitting the controller into the machine is no problem at all. My compartment under my delta's bed holds a psu, duetwifi, 2 buck converters, and an ssr with room to spare. But my micro delta printer can only fit a ramps/mega board in it with cutouts in the electronics compartment.

                          Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                          www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                          PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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                          • dc42
                            dc42 administrators last edited by

                            Have you considered turning your micro delta upside down, i.e. stepper motors and electronics at the top instead of the bottom? You can avoid running heavy power wires up the towers by using a cheap 5-terminal bed heater SSR in the bottom.

                            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                            • DjDemonD
                              DjDemonD last edited by

                              Hi David, it's designed so that either the electronics or steppers can be at the top or bottom but not both. It really is micro sized the bed is just 100mm diameter and 3x nema 14 motors only just fit into the base, as I have it configured with electronics at the top, motors at the bottom. The bed is heated by a silicone heater at only 40w on 12v so I won't need any ssr's.

                              http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1874766

                              The duetwifi board is physically larger than the electronics compartment. I could use one externally if I wanted to switch over.

                              Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                              www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                              PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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                              • elmoret
                                elmoret last edited by

                                Maybe turn the board 90 degrees in that case and mount it vertically,

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                                • dc42
                                  dc42 administrators last edited by

                                  Sounds like a custom triangular board with 4 drivers would be perfect! Also for such small motors you don't need TMC2660 drivers, the smaller TMC2130 would be a better match.

                                  Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                  Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                  http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                                  • kelchm
                                    kelchm last edited by

                                    @elmoret:

                                    This would probably add $10-20 to the cost for everyone, since it would mean doing two PCB fab/assembly processes instead of one. Also it would mean introducing a failure point at the stack's connectors. It would also mean the board is taller for everyone, for some printer designs height is the limiting factor. Not saying it isn't possible, but there would be some drawbacks to consider. Cost is probably the biggest one.

                                    Agreed. The Duet Wifi is already expensive, the price being even higher would be a difficult sell.

                                    Basically I'm just envisioning that the main board would have no integrated stepper drivers. It sounds like that sort of design could work well with multiple CAN bus driver boards that are located very close to the stepper motors. This could also have some big benefits in terms of EMI since the stepper motor wires could be much shorter.

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                                    • dc42
                                      dc42 administrators last edited by

                                      @kelchm:

                                      Basically I'm just envisioning that the main board would have no integrated stepper drivers. It sounds like that sort of design could work well with multiple CAN bus driver boards that are located very close to the stepper motors. This could also have some big benefits in terms of EMI since the stepper motor wires could be much shorter.

                                      Yes, you could do it that way, but the costs would be higher. Each slave board would need a PCB, processor, CAN transceiver, power regulator and connectors, in addition to the stepper driver(s) and any other components moved off the main PCB.

                                      Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                      Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                      http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                                      • T3P3Tony
                                        T3P3Tony administrators last edited by

                                        There is no one size fits all, We tried to make the DuetWifi be suitible for a wide range of printers, and be easily extendable for a much larger range through the large expansion header.

                                        If only small form factor is important then a minimal board with daughter boards on each stepper driver and a hotend carriage mounted hotend controller board would be the way to go, but it would not be cheaper.

                                        If a lower cost controller is important (while retaining core functionality) then a single extruder board with minimal expand-ability is the way to go.

                                        www.duet3d.com

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                                        • DjDemonD
                                          DjDemonD last edited by

                                          I think it is what it is and is a very well positioned offering. Smaller boards are available though as you say they're either older tech or less expandable. Electronics though always get smaller, and I'm sure 3d printer controllers will do too, some type of standardisation of wiring and connectors would help.

                                          Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                                          www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                                          PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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                                          • deckingman
                                            deckingman last edited by

                                            John Lydgate said it first (brain teaser for today).

                                            Ian
                                            https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                                            https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

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                                            • DjDemonD
                                              DjDemonD last edited by

                                              Needs must as the devil drives?

                                              Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                                              www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                                              PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

                                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                              • deckingman
                                                deckingman last edited by

                                                @DjDemonD:

                                                Needs must as the devil drives?

                                                Nah. The one I was thinking about was "You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time".

                                                So with the Duet some people want more features, others don't want to pay for features they don't need, others want a smaller footprint, some want more features and a smaller footprint, and we'd all like it to do everything and cost nothing. 🙂

                                                Ian
                                                https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                                                https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

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                                                • DjDemonD
                                                  DjDemonD last edited by

                                                  Yeah fair enough I didn't know that was one of his too, but that's what I mean, its a well positioned offering, if it weren't people wouldn't be buying them, or they would be selling them on ebay, which they aren't.

                                                  Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                                                  www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                                                  PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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