PanelDue future hardware direction



  • Hi there,

    with all of the duet3d-3 boards supporting a raspberry which supports various types of lcd/tft-touchscreens, I recently thought about what purpose could a potential PanelDue in the future serve? With the latest Raspberry supporting 4K-screens with fast refresh-rate in wide color-spaces it is certainly not up for the PanelDue to compete with it...

    But then when surfing in the web I though - I personally - would think there would be still a purpose on industrial printers to have e.g. an small e-ink touchscreen (resistive touch preferred for pen-input) that is directly connected to the mainboard. Because I like the idea to have a direct interface with minimal lag! With e-ink becoming more and more higher resolution and bigger in screensize this would have the additional advantage to need almost no power (saves on the bill, especially in professional environment) and does NOT need a screensaver because of what other screen-types fear: burn-in. Also you could write a custom firmware where you do only "partial-refresh" which most (all?) e-inks support, so to only update the pixels that change...

    E.g. this e-paper here in 6"-800x600
    https://www.waveshare.com/product/raspberry-pi/displays/e-paper/6inch-e-paper-hat.htm?___SID=U
    or same size in higher-res 6"-1448×1072
    with a resistive touch foil like this
    https://german.alibaba.com/product-detail/hd-anti-glare-2-0-2-4-2-8-3-0-3-2-3-5-4-4-3-4-5-5-6-6-2-6-5-7-15-inch-4-wire-resistive-touch-screen-panel-60734546477.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_title.5da36d25lMhaGc
    (e.g. 800x600 for the "lower" resolution e-ink display)

    (I think for this use-case even there are now more an more e-ink full-color displays (e.g. like this https://german.alibaba.com/product-detail/384x512-8-inch-color-epaper-display-ereader-ebook-readers-front-light-option-with-touch-panel-62388715331.html?spm=a2700.md_de_DE.deiletai6.6.4c1b2908TkVt1o) it would not even need that, with some high-end touch (like here https://www.obtouch.com/product-category/resistive-touch-screens/) black/white with 1 touch-point is fine for me for PanelDue...)

    That PanelDue could be "always-on" directly connected to the duet, since it does not really mater for the screen-live and electricity-bill.

    On the other hand for a full-fleged screen on a raspi with touch, or a consumer-tablet, or a laptop, with lots of pixels in full color, etc., would rather run there DWC only when needed because of all the power it needs... DWC has a lot of benefits, but for me it is more for those times when I tinker with the printer, not when I just wanna print, then PanelDue is what I prefer...

    @dc42
    @wilriker

    What is your opinion on machine-fixed-"directdrive"-permanent-displays?

    Cheers!



  • I personally prefer to make things as simple as possible, and can't get much simpler than a hard wired touch screen.

    if anything was to change, I'd vote for larger screen higher resolution screen option, Perhaps a 10" model.

    I'm not sure what the cost would be but you can find a lot of 10" 1080p tablets today for under $100 USD.



  • @DanS79

    And what do you think about burn-in and power-consumption? These are the 2 main reasons that e-ink was invented I guess... Could you live with a black/white e-ink, let´s say minimum 8" screen or do you think image-burn-in and power-consumption are neglectable anyway?


  • Moderator

    Have e ink screens improved their response time yet? A laggy display would be annoying.




  • Moderator

    "You can't change any one part of the display without going through the entire multi second refresh that blanks the entire panel"

    That seems like e-ink would be a non-starter while that's still the case.



  • @Phaedrux said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    "You can't change any one part of the display without going through the entire multi second refresh that blanks the entire panel"

    not true, see the video at 2:45, it just requires special coding


  • Moderator

    @Veti said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    @Phaedrux said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    "You can't change any one part of the display without going through the entire multi second refresh that blanks the entire panel"

    not true, see the video at 2:45, it just requires special coding

    Serves me right for skimming the first 20 seconds of a 30 minute video!

    I'll check the rest of it later.



  • IMO panel due is just fine. HD display with milions of colors? This is not a multimedia player. It is just not needed.

    And... not everyone is using RPi. I find convinient to power on my printer and have instant start, and not to worry about powering it down just by a switch instead of dealing with linux boot-up/power down sequence just to keep filesystem right.

    But this is just my opinion.



  • @LB said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    @DanS79

    And what do you think about burn-in and power-consumption? These are the 2 main reasons that e-ink was invented I guess... Could you live with a black/white e-ink, let´s say minimum 8" screen or do you think image-burn-in and power-consumption are neglectable anyway?

    personally I'd just let it have a sleep function. That would solve the burn-in and power consumption issues.



  • @BoA said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    IMO panel due is just fine. HD display with milions of colors? This is not a multimedia player. It is just not needed.

    That's what the major panel manufacturers are making now.

    for example 10.1" seems to be the most prolific panel size for tablets now. The most common resolutions seems to be 1024x600, 1280x800, and 1920x1200



  • While (some?) e-ink can be parially refreshed relatively quickly does it affect the lifespan of the display? Some vendors suggest faster refresh rates could shorten the life.



  • @DanS79 said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    That's what the major panel manufacturers are making now.
    for example 10.1" seems to be the most prolific panel size for tablets now. The most common resolutions seems to be 1024x600, 1280x800, and 1920x1200

    Exactly - for tables, where You watch Youtube, play games, etc. I see no reason to use such big display for printer.



  • @BoA I think you missed my point. the panels you want to use are the panels that are being mass produced, so you can get them at a good price.

    The benefit of a larger panel would to fit more information on the screen.



  • I just purchased this $36 5" 800*480 screen for Pi3b/4 (<- AliExpress ).

    Claims to power the screen though the Pi DSI flat flex for a super clean install.

    Curious to see how DWC or DueUI plays with that size when it arrives in 4-12 weeks, but with that size screen cheaper than the PanelDue + the somewhat static nature of PanelDue I'd think it's a better option for tinkerers



  • @bearer I guess DWC is not designed for small displays. It will be hard to navigate IMO. PanelDue has basically interface that is suitable for small display and You still do not have to use tip of the pen to press the right button.

    With DWC this might be a different story.



  • @Veti

    Thanks for sharing! Yes, for e-ink, partial refresh requires special coding, the displays I posted in the beginning are capable of that and when used have a refreshrate <1s which is not enough for movies with 24/30fps but fast enough for a printer interface. Also I like that they have no refresh at all if nothing changes. Consumes no power then.

    For sure they are too expensive for now, but if the next few years a 6"/7" e-ink gets cheap enough I like the fact that it does NOT need a screensaver so you can always see what is going on with the printer, also I like the greyscale simple interface

    Anyway this post was more about a discussion for very far-fetched future things maybe 2-5 years ahead from now. For now they seem to be too expensive even if they got responsive enough.

    Will watch your posted video now on sunday 🙂 afternoon

    Edit: Cheaper(?)/older(?) e-inks definetly suffer from weird refreshs beeing so slow that you think the screen is broke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3bMtoIFwb8 especially getting worse the more colors it has(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psHYQogWnpM), but the newer ones seem to get below 1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BIitW7uR_M), if I can afford (maybe in a year or so) will try maybe this one here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb68B-MjmGs do not think I will have the money for something like this here http://dasungtech.com/english/detail/id/223



  • @Phaedrux

    They slowly seem to go the road down, those first 2 posted above from that company called "waveshare" which seems to be big time player for raspi-displays (that´s how I found them in the web) seem to have recently come out with displays with <1s. I check on some of them and the "older" displays they distribute have way longer refresh rates. Seems like e-ink is becoming better finaly - guess also on an e-reader you do not want to wait more than half a second or so... (The full-color posted with the alibaba-link for sure is slower...)

    But for a PanelDue (even maybe with rotary encoder instead of touch) I like the idea of having a machine-display that is always on and consumes almost no power. But for now they are for sure too expensive for the purpose they would serve.



  • @LB said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    I like the idea of having a machine-display that is always on and consumes almost no power.

    I am just wondering what is the point having energy saving display, when just next to it You have a 50W heater in printing head, and 200W+ heatbed. Not to mention the motors and stuff like LED lighting and chamber heater (200W+). RPi can consume more power itself than a PanelDue. It is like saving 2W power in 1kW device. IMO just pointless.



  • @BoA said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    @LB said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    I like the idea of having a machine-display that is always on and consumes almost no power.

    I am just wondering what is the point having energy saving display, when just next to it You have a 50W heater in printing head, and 200W+ heatbed. Not to mention the motors and stuff like LED lighting and chamber heater (200W+). RPi can consume more power itself than a PanelDue. It is like saving 2W power in 1kW device. IMO just pointless.

    (200W heatbed + 200W chamber-heater -> seems to be a big printer and or have little insulation - but I know a lot of folks where it is the same for the private printer )

    THANK YOU for pointing your scenario out, but for the beginning

    I think you mixed up PanelDue with DWC

    (maybe because of my posts where I wrote something about trying something out on a raspi):

    Maybe my english is too bad: The original post/question was what kind of minimal interface to use for 24/7 printing machine printing 7 days a week the whole year for at least 2-3 years and not for one but lets say 5-10 of those machines... that FOR SURE DOES NOT use a raspi and full-color screen, do NOT have an always-on lightning, do NOT have all of these optional things...

    a minimal interface for an production printer running always connecting directly to duet (NOT to raspi)

    But when you have 5-10 printers printing 24/7 for the company things might look diffrent. Paying 10bucks more for a display might be O.K. if it lasts long and electricity bill (especially with the new "green deal" in the european union this might become more of an issue in the future) is low... also always-on/no-screensaver is good so I do not have to click on each of those let´s say 6 printers only to check the status, can just walk by and have a look

    Also if you build more than 1, let´s say those 6 pieces of printers, space is something to think about, and small PanelDue-displays in e.g. 7" take up less space then a big 13,3"(via raspi then running DWC but then it is no longer a PanelDue...)

    On a private/personal printer electricity-cost and space (for a big screen) is not really important, because how often does the machine really run? Maybe I also lead you to assume what you wrote down, because of course if I as an individual want to try a e-ink display out let´s say now - I am not able to code something to connect it directly to duet why I opened this post, I as an individual would have to start with raspi/arduino because that is what I am able to do for now... do not get confused by it for my final application thought...

    Sorry if you misunderstood me, I my opinion a raspi is only usefull for DWC (not PanelDue - but/and this post IS about PanelDue - NOT DWC) and if you use DWC you want a big boasting full color screen connected e.g. to your raspi (and then electricity bill and lifetime is also irrelevant). Please just don´t mix it up with PanelDue, and this post is about PanelDue which connects directly to duet (and not via raspi)

    But I agree,
    -> on the scenario you described it would be totally pointless or ridicule...
    -> but that is what this whole discussion is about -> on private (no 24/7) printers, PanelDue certainly will die out because of what you described in your scenario.

    So where is the future application of PanelDue compared to DWC in a few years from now: One scenario is a non-private environment where you do not want a small computer like pi and machine will there be heavily used



  • I am happy with a tethered display such as the existing paneldue which connects directly to the printer's controller without the complexity of adding a full fledge computer (the Pi). As for the power consumption, I think it's insignificant, adding probably less than 0.1% of the cost of the print which is inexpensive anyway.

    Improvements I would appreciate:

    1. Updates via the duet. That is, updating the duet's firmware also updates the paneldue.

    2. Additional functionality such as a thumbnail with the object's view.

    3. A more modern UI look and feel.

    I am using a 5i that is connected with a 6' serial cable and is not mounted physically to the printer such that I can hold and move it around.



  • rPi+DWC with 12864 lcd directly connected might be the best of both - if that is a supported combination?



  • @zapta said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    I am happy with a tethered display such as the existing paneldue which connects directly to the printer's controller without the complexity of adding a full fledge computer (the Pi). As for the power consumption, I think it's insignificant, adding probably less than 0.1% of the cost of the print which is inexpensive anyway.
    Improvements I would appreciate:

    Updates via the duet. That is, updating the duet's firmware also updates the paneldue.

    Additional functionality such as a thumbnail with the object's view.

    A more modern UI look and feel.

    I am using a 5i that is connected with a 6' serial cable and is not mounted physically to the printer such that I can hold and move it around.

    Updating PanelDue via Duet-Mainboard would totally fit that "non-private" use-scenario because the admin can easier update it without having to plug e.g. a laptop e.g. with usb-cable to the PanelDue. For me would be equally cool to maybe have an update button (doesn´t need to be physical) in PanelDue that reads the necessary data from the sd-card sitting in the slot on the paneldue or something like it

    Maybe this thread was too far-fetched

    @ any admin: You might just close it...


  • Moderator

    @zapta said in PanelDue future hardware direction:

    Updates via the duet. That is, updating the duet's firmware also updates the paneldue.

    That one has been on the list for a while and I think is getting closer to fruition.



  • @Phaedrux

    Sounds great!

    -> Can you close this thread please... was a bit too far-fetched I guess...


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