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Is Duet still open source?

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  • undefined
    arhi
    last edited by 21 Apr 2020, 15:59

    @zapta yes, I agree, I was talking about repairability part, not about OSH part

    @bearer I don't think there is a way to provide BRD that will make creating printable gerbers impossible unless you remove all the internal layers (but that makes the BRD pretty useless for repair work).

    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 21 Apr 2020, 16:44 Reply Quote 0
    • undefined
      zapta @arhi
      last edited by zapta 21 Apr 2020, 16:44

      @arhi said in Is Duet still open source?:

      @zapta yes, I agree, I was talking about repairability part, not about OSH part

      Yes, you are right, repairability and OSH have different goals and requirements. Reparability doesn't even require an open source license, but does require a schematic and parts list.

      It was common for commercial electronic manufacturer to provide schematics and parts list. These days it's often discouraged, hence The Right To Repair movement.

      BTW, this is my favorite repair document. The entire schematic is artfully condensed into a single page ๐Ÿ˜‰

      http://colinoflynn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/MX-500P-11.pdf

      undefined 1 Reply Last reply 21 Apr 2020, 16:52 Reply Quote 0
      • undefined
        arhi @zapta
        last edited by 21 Apr 2020, 16:52

        @zapta I have ton of old tektronix equipment (7106 is what I love the most) ๐Ÿ˜„ that's documentation ppl should learn how to make these days, but back then the idea was to make repairable equipment, today I'd say the idea is completely opposite today ๐Ÿ˜ž so helping OSH projects like duet, smoothie... is really important

        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 21 Apr 2020, 17:18 Reply Quote 0
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          zapta @arhi
          last edited by 21 Apr 2020, 17:18

          @arhi, yes, I also appreciate the old repair manuals though I doubt if I would spend the time to read them in this era of TL;DR. ๐Ÿ˜‰

          Duet uses a different model for reparability. Instead of spending time and money preparing in advance detailed repair documents, they use an 'on demand' approach where users can ask repair question whenever they arise.

          I think this is a better model for small and fast moving company such as duet.

          My 2c.

          undefined 1 Reply Last reply 21 Apr 2020, 17:30 Reply Quote 0
          • undefined
            arhi @zapta
            last edited by 21 Apr 2020, 17:30

            @zapta I find way duet doing thing great so far, no complaints ๐Ÿ™‚ would not change a thing

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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              MarkH @zapta
              last edited by MarkH 22 Apr 2020, 16:31

              @zapta I agree on the OSHW side of things, mainly because Duet3D's website makes a big deal about being open source hardware, software, and an open community.

              You can't have it both ways, either your hardware is opensource, and design files are released, or it's closed source, and they are not - but perhaps a schematic is provided for assisting with software dev.

              For my project, I only need the schematic so my needs are covered, but I don't see that as falling under open source hardware.

              Withholding the hardware design for whatever reason isn't in good faith for open source goals and claims. If the source is withheld, then the open source claim is just marketing fluff for people who think open source is good and want to support open source projects, even if they have no intention of using the source.

              If you want sole distributorship/manufacturing rights (for whatever reason) and to not have anyone else sell your design or remixes thereof, don't release it as open source, or instead use a restrictive open license. Alternatively, make older versions open source, with the newest version proprietary commercial, but don't claim to be open source if you don't release the source files (which is the very definition of closed source.)

              This is why I originally questioned whether the project was still open source.

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                Danal
                last edited by Danal 22 Apr 2020, 18:28

                FWIW, I believe Duet should either remove the entire "OPEN" green bar from their website, or, my preference, they should get a lot better about actually releasing things. And perhaps link from that green bar to the repository.

                Right now, they clearly don't deserve to be representing that they are open.

                -or-

                Clearly state something like "hardware files will be released after first hardware shipments to customers" (and then, of course, do that).

                Delta / Kossel printer fanatic

                undefined 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2020, 10:06 Reply Quote 0
                • undefined
                  mwwhited @Danal
                  last edited by 25 Apr 2020, 10:06

                  @Danal said in Is Duet still open source?:

                  FWIW, I believe Duet should either remove the entire "OPEN" green bar from their website, or, my preference, they should get a lot better about actually releasing things. And perhaps link from that green bar to the repository.

                  Right now, they clearly don't deserve to be representing that they are open.

                  -or-

                  Clearly state something like "hardware files will be released after first hardware shipments to customers" (and then, of course, do that).

                  Itโ€™s amazing how many people are so demanding of projects (open and closed).

                  To the entire team of hardware and software devs building these products..Thanks, you are amazing and your work is awesome.

                  To those that are complaining, chill out. This stuff isnโ€™t easy or free to design, build and test. If it is rushed you will just get buggy garbage that catches fire spontaneously.

                  ? undefined 2 Replies Last reply 25 Apr 2020, 10:16 Reply Quote 3
                  • ?
                    A Former User @mwwhited
                    last edited by 25 Apr 2020, 10:16

                    @mwwhited said in Is Duet still open source?:

                    To those that are complaining, chill out. This stuff isnโ€™t easy or free to design, build and test. If it is rushed you will just get buggy garbage that catches fire spontaneously.

                    and clones with the same issues with no incentive to fix it; duet have said they'll release it, just not when. idk if the license has any requirements to that regard

                    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2020, 13:58 Reply Quote 1
                    • undefined
                      zapta @A Former User
                      last edited by zapta 25 Apr 2020, 13:58

                      @bearer said in Is Duet still open source?:

                      ... idk if the license has any requirements to that regard

                      I think that the concerns are about truthful representation to potential buyers. For example, the Duet's website currently states:

                      All the hardware designs are licensed under the CERN OHL 1.2. The design files are released on GitHub.

                      Not all buyers are long time members here and understand the nuances, timeline, and the dilemmas of the Duet team.

                      ? 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2020, 14:00 Reply Quote 0
                      • ?
                        A Former User @zapta
                        last edited by A Former User 25 Apr 2020, 14:00

                        @zapta said in Is Duet still open source?:

                        Duet's website currently states:

                        I would think the simple explanation is the good old "it was true at the time"; and while I feel less strongly about it it would warrant adding an caveat to that statement or simply releasing the files.

                        Simply changing "are released" to "will be released" should satisfy the current and future debacles?

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • undefined
                          Danal @mwwhited
                          last edited by Danal 25 Apr 2020, 16:38

                          @mwwhited said in Is Duet still open source?:

                          @Danal said in Is Duet still open source?:

                          FWIW, I believe Duet should either remove the entire "OPEN" green bar from their website, or, my preference, they should get a lot better about actually releasing things. And perhaps link from that green bar to the repository.

                          Right now, they clearly don't deserve to be representing that they are open.

                          -or-

                          Clearly state something like "hardware files will be released after first hardware shipments to customers" (and then, of course, do that).

                          Itโ€™s amazing how many people are so demanding of projects (open and closed).

                          To the entire team of hardware and software devs building these products..Thanks, you are amazing and your work is awesome.

                          To those that are complaining, chill out. This stuff isnโ€™t easy or free to design, build and test. If it is rushed you will just get buggy garbage that catches fire spontaneously.

                          Since you directly quoted me all I am really asking is:

                          "Do what you say; say what you do"

                          If THAT has somehow become to harsh to say out loud, or is "Demanding", or even worse if the principle itself is debatable... well, I don't even know how to finish that thought.

                          Search my posts. 99.9% or more are supportive of Duet, and I regularly recommend them to friends and on other forums. At the same time, "Do what you say, say what you do" with regard to being open is a statement that needs to be heard.

                          Delta / Kossel printer fanatic

                          undefined 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2020, 20:52 Reply Quote 0
                          • botundefined
                            bot
                            last edited by 25 Apr 2020, 17:35

                            The design files are released on GitHub.

                            Can be interpreted in several ways. One way is of a generalized procedure.

                            The design files are (routinely) released on GitHub (at the time they are ready to be released).

                            It's not saying that all the design files are already there. It's saying that's where they are released.

                            *not actually a robot

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • undefined
                              zapta @Danal
                              last edited by 25 Apr 2020, 20:52

                              @Danal said in Is Duet still open source?:

                              If THAT has somehow become to harsh to say out loud, or is "Demanding"

                              This is cognitive dissonance, and is not personal. We humans are not good with consolidating opposing views. In this case, "The Duet's people are awesome" (they are) vs. "The Duet website misrepresents the OSH situation" (it does). It creates stress.

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • undefined
                                Danal
                                last edited by Danal 26 Apr 2020, 01:09

                                Zapta said it very well. I have very positive opinion of Duet the company and the individuals in it. I also believe they can up the degree to which they align the green bar on the web site says with regard to 'open', align that better to actions.

                                Those two things may seem dissonant to others.

                                Delta / Kossel printer fanatic

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • undefined
                                  zapta
                                  last edited by 10 May 2020, 01:10

                                  Appropos open source hardware, Prusa publishes this interactive BOM that is generated by this tool https://github.com/openscopeproject/InteractiveHtmlBom.

                                  http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/prusa3d/CW-CONTROLLER-PCB/blob/master/rev.04c/ibom.html

                                  Duet team may find it useful for publishing, but I presume that everybody with access to kicad files can generate them as well.

                                  ? 1 Reply Last reply 10 May 2020, 02:30 Reply Quote 0
                                  • ?
                                    A Former User @zapta
                                    last edited by 10 May 2020, 02:30

                                    @zapta hadn't seen that. It does seem geared towards assembly rather than repair/review but still I'd say anything that lowers the bar of accessibility is a good thing keeping multiple versions of KiCad on hand doesn't promote accessibility even if everyone in theory could do do it. Thanks for pointing it out, usefull to Duet or not.

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