Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans
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Hi again!
I got the Tina-TI model of TLV9352 opamp and simulated the circuit as faithfully as I could. Depending on the input, I can get it to oscillate, but a capacitor in the feedback loop seems to get rid of the oscillation. Now, worst case just rings (when I apply a fast rising clock direct to opamp input, not real use), so I'll put the capacitor in the PCB and test with and without the capacitor.
Using the opamp model, there's no need for a VBE resistor (you where right @zapta) and max voltage is 23.82V (which is a beliebable output). Tina seems to simulate better than Multisim.
I just ordered the components for a 10 boards test batch (since I needed to order some components for other project). I'll order a PCB batch too, and report, but will take 15 day the less for the PCB to arrive.
I think is time to count how many board you all will need:
PWM signal support:
- Open drain active low (Duet), 20k impedance
- VCC level PWM (0.05·VCC to VCC with 10k impedance or 0.1·VCC to VCC 20k impedance)
Output
- Scaled %PWM from VCC
- VCC range: 4.5V - 40V
- Current depends on power transistor, planned BD139
Are you interested in single PWM board or dual(more?) PWM board?
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Now that I read my own post... When I talk about VCC level PWM, 0.05·VCC, I mean that "high" level can be as low as 0.05xVCC, thats 1.2V for 24V VCC, and as high as VCC itself. Low level shoud be 0V.
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@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
Output
- Current depends on power transistor, planned BD139
Does that mean, the user can decide on his own power transistor/fet (NPN) as long as you don't exceed the maximum Current suitable for the PCB-traces (or maybe even strengthen them with solder if necessary)?
Maybe a single board may be sufficent for most users. Is it possible, do design a dual board, that can be "cut" in two indipendent halves by the user?
If thats not possible i think it would be good to have dual boards (only).Im willing to be a beta-tester for the boards (having a watercooled toolhead with oversized loud 120mm 3-wire-fans on the radiator).
I would also be interested in up to four (4) dual boards or five to six (6) single boards of the final version./Julien
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@ZipZap said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
Output
- Current depends on power transistor, planned BD139
Does that mean, the user can decide on his own power transistor/fet (NPN) as long as you don't exceed the maximum Current suitable for the PCB-traces (or maybe even strengthen them with solder if necessary)?
Maybe a single board may be sufficent for most users. Is it possible, do design a dual board, that can be "cut" in two indipendent halves by the user?
If thats not possible i think it would be good to have dual boards (only).Im willing to be a beta-tester for the boards (having a watercooled toolhead with oversized loud 120mm 3-wire-fans on the radiator).
I would also be interested in up to four (4) dual boards or five to six (6) single boards of the final version./Julien
Well, the board is not designed for high currents, but the transistor will limit the current well before the pcb traces would. BD139 IIRC has a thermal resistance of 100ºC/W, and a maxtemp of 150ºC, so it would be ok for currents about... 200mA at 24V with light heatsinking (by heart). And the limit is about disipated power, so if you can lower VCC, you would be able to use higher currents. And sice the transistor footprint is just 3 holes, you could always try different transistors if you want
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@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
I'll order a PCB batch too, and report,
Any thoughts regarding the board dimensions, mounting arrangement, choice of connectors and pin assignment, indicator LEDS, etc?
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@Egon-Net im intrested also in your custoim changer as well
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@zapta said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
I'll order a PCB batch too, and report,
Any thoughts regarding the board dimensions, mounting arrangement, choice of connectors and pin assignment, indicator LEDS, etc?
This is what I thought:
Board dimensions: as small as I manage to do it
Mounting arrangment: I though about for 3.5mm holes, one in each corner
Connectors: open to suggestions, but I thought screw or pin
Leds: I'd prefer not to include any given the VCC variability
Arrangement of connectors: VCC/GND/PWM in one side GND/Vanalog in the opposite side.Any suggestion?
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@bks31 said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
@Egon-Net im intrested also in your custoim changer as well
Do you mean my tool changer printer?
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@bks31 said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
@Egon-Net im intrested also in your custoim changer as well
yes wasnt sure if you were making like a attachment for the carraige
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@bks31 said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
@bks31 said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
@Egon-Net im intrested also in your custoim changer as wellyes wasnt sure if you were making like a attachment for the carraige
It's a custom motion system, 300mmx300mmx300mm CoreXY, with e3d toolchanger plates...
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@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
Any suggestion?
All sounds reasonable to me. As for the LEDS, since they are for indication only, you can easily have a 1:4 voltage range (e.g. 2 to 8ma) without going out of spec.
They are nice for diagnostics, but not absolutely required IMO.
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Well, I have one fan that is pwm regulated so, at least for now I’m in to one PCB also
My printer is a Longer LK4, but if that’s not a concern then perfect.Do you think is easy to implement something like a 8v-24v range?
Regards
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@marcelorider said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
Well, I have one fan that is pwm regulated so, at least for now I’m in to one PCB also
My printer is a Longer LK4, but if that’s not a concern then perfect.Do you think is easy to implement something like a 8v-24v range?
Regards
You can limit the PWM in M106 gcode so if it's less than a value, a minimum value is set (8V->33% equivalent for your case). The bad side is that from 0% to 33%, it would output the same 8V.
I'm afraid there's not an easy way to limit the lower side as you'd need.
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Just a reminder that if you are not using a fan output on a DueX2 or DueX5 board, you can increase the PWM frequency to 65535 and then use a simple LC filter, i.e. capacitor in parallel with the fan, and an inductor between the Duet FAN- output and the negative fan wire + capacitor. Suitable component values would be 1mH and 1uF. For the inductor, part # 13R105C is widely available and rated up to 330mA, which should be sufficient for most fans used in 3D printers.
If using a heater output on a Duet 2 to drive a fan with LC filter, you also need to add a flyback diode across the output terminals.
DueX boards have a fixed PWM frequency, so this approach would need a much larger inductor, making is impractical unless you have some old transformers lying around.
Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com -
@dc42 said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
Just a reminder that if you are not using a fan output on a DueX2 or DueX5 board, you can increase the PWM frequency to 65535 and then use a simple LC filter, i.e. capacitor in parallel with the fan, and an inductor between the Duet FAN- output and the negative fan wire + capacitor. Suitable component values would be 1mH and 1uF. For the inductor, part # 13R105C is widely available and rated up to 330mA, which should be sufficient for most fans used in 3D printers.
If using a heater output on a Duet 2 to drive a fan with LC filter, you also need to add a flyback diode across the output terminals.
DueX boards have a fixed PWM frequency, so this approach would need a much larger inductor, making is impractical unless you have some old transformers lying around.
That's the very reason I'm doing all of this: I'm driving 6 fans from a Duex 5 board, and I already calculated that the inductor for a LC filter would be huge, and I'd need 6 of them. That's why I went with this route. But thanks for the advice!
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@Egon-Net
Thanks for the reply.
Honestly I don’t use it below 50% so I don’t think that would be a problem.
Although as of now the fan doesn’t even spin correctly with any pwm state and just rotates above 50% but so slow, not controllable by any means. -
@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
That's the very reason I'm doing all of this: I'm driving 6 fans from a Duex 5 board, and I already calculated that the inductor for a LC filter would be huge, and I'd need 6 of them. That's why I went with this route. But thanks for the advice!
Have you determined what it is about your fans that cause them to not work with PWM?
I have dozens of different kinds of brushless fans from many different vendors and they all work fine with PWM.
Thanks.
Frederick
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@fcwilt said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
That's the very reason I'm doing all of this: I'm driving 6 fans from a Duex 5 board, and I already calculated that the inductor for a LC filter would be huge, and I'd need 6 of them. That's why I went with this route. But thanks for the advice!
Have you determined what it is about your fans that cause them to not work with PWM?
I have dozens of different kinds of brushless fans from many different vendors and they all work fine with PWM.
Thanks.
Frederick
Yes, I've done quite a lot of test. Some of my fans don't work at all as soon as you drop from 99% PWM. Most of them work, but PWM is not linear at all: 99% is already less than 25% airflow, and 50% PWM is no much less than that, and some of them kinda work with PWM, but whinning an awful lot, since they are connected to a Duex5 and I cannot change PWM frequency at all.
I suppose that 4010 fans, and even more, 4010 brushless radial fans are very tricky to get working with PWM.By contrast, using my bench power supply, all of them work more or less linearly, at the very least from 12V to 24V.
In my other old printer (an old cartesian Marlin based custom one) I'm using 4020 and 5015 radial fans and managed to get some fans that work ok with PWM.
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@Egon-Net said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
Yes, I've done quite a lot of test. Some of my fans don't work at all as soon as you drop from 99% PWM. Most of them work, but PWM is not linear at all: 99% is already less than 25% airflow
That doesn't make sense.
According to my oscilloscope 100% is pure DC and 99% is 99% "pure DC".
It seems strange that those 1% intervals where the power to the fan drops to 0 would reduce the airflow to 25%.
Weird.
Frederick
Printers: a small Utilmaker style, a small CoreXY and a E3D MS/TC setup. Various hotends. Using Duet 3 hardware running 3.4.6
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@fcwilt said in Designing a PWM to Analog mini board for fans:
It seems strange that those 1% intervals where the power to the fan drops to 0 would reduce the airflow to 25%.
I think that those fans are driven by electronics that is embedded in them. Once the PWM cuts the power to the electronics, it's difficult to predict how that electronic will behave, unless it's guaranteed by its datasheet.
Powering electronics that expects DC voltage with intermittent power is a hack. (No offense, I do it as well).
