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Polycarbonate build plate…. No bed heat Success!!!

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  • undefined
    number40fan
    last edited by 17 Jul 2017, 15:54

    sheet* and the table 😄

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    • undefined
      Sethipus
      last edited by 18 Jul 2017, 01:14

      If I bought Lexan sheets offered up for use as window panes and whatnot, are you guys saying these typically have a scooped side? Or are you talking about PC from other sources?

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      • undefined
        Whitewolf
        last edited by 18 Jul 2017, 04:00

        Not sure about window pane grade…. I have seen many varations of PC some costing a lot more. I am sure those versions have better tolerences and are probably machined flat... I am referring to the cheap stuff on amazon and other sources.

        Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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        • undefined
          T3P3Tony administrators
          last edited by 18 Jul 2017, 07:01

          Some of the versions specifically designed for glazing may have UV coatings etc

          www.duet3d.com

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          • undefined
            Sethipus
            last edited by 18 Jul 2017, 15:01

            @T3P3Tony:

            Some of the versions specifically designed for glazing may have UV coatings etc

            I've got some 100 and 150 grit sand pads for my random orbital sander. I'll experiment with using them to scuff up the surface of the Lexan, clamp it directly onto my build plate (no thermal pads or anything in between) and give this a try. I wonder if any coatings that might be there will be removed by this? Or, barring that, whether they'll make any difference?

            I print a lot of PLA, PETG, and more recently I've been experimenting with ASA. I've got a PC/ASA blend I want to try as well, and I've experimented with PCMax and eSun's ePC before as well, and some things like Taulman's alloy 910. I probably won't go back to PCMax until I've got some kind of enclosure. The ePC was too brittle to be of much use to me. The others I'd really like to see if they'll stick to this Lexan.

            I've never actuall printed anything without a heated bed. Not sure if that really interests me, to be honest. I not only like how the heat helps things stick, but the difference between heat and no heat helps me remove things since the hold on the build plate reduces as the prints cool down to room temperature and there's that little bit of shrinkage of the filament, breaking the bonds that hold it. Been printing on PEI for many moons now, and I love it. I'm really just curious how this Lexan compares to PEI.

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            • undefined
              Whitewolf
              last edited by 18 Jul 2017, 15:20

              The problem with heat is depending on the filament you can make things stick so good that you wont be able to get them off.

              Things like nylon 910 will benefit from 55c and others like acetal pom…. This really isnt a new idea go read about Fleks3D build plate. heat is not a friend of PC in most situations.

              Especially heat above 55c i even got Igus Iglidur filament to weld to the build plate at 60c (i have tested stuff up to 120c and had a couple situations where it was extremely difficult to even sand the old filament off the bed plate.

              Also the PC plate begins to warp above 55c

              My rule of thumb really is no heat until i come across a filament that shows signs of warping then i use a brim or add 55c heat

              The trickiest filaments have been acetal pom and the taulman nylon series but they are doable with 55c

              Also when you say lexan are you talking clear lexan? if you look at my posts a few up where i show the photo of the Fleks3d build plate... i can tell you from experience that clear does not stick as well as the black on such a large range of filaments... Fleks3d is a commercial build plate from clear lexan and inwas never getting the results that i am from black PC

              Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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              • undefined
                Whitewolf
                last edited by 18 Jul 2017, 15:29

                read posts like these: https://www.duet3d.com/forum/thread.php?pid=18708#p18708

                also read about Fleks3d build plate for part removal the key is not heat, it really isnt needed

                Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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                • undefined
                  okercho
                  last edited by 22 Jul 2017, 23:50

                  Hi there!

                  After several prints I must say I'm still impressed with PC, it's the best print surface I've used so far, although is not perfect of course… here a few impressions and a question:

                  • PLA and PETG (so far, the materials I've printed with) sticks perfectly... sometimes it sticks too much.
                  • The Z Offset is really important and depends on the material you're printing with... for PLA I need to setup a 0.1 offset, for PETG I'm still testing, but 0'25 seems to be OK. If you're closed to the bed, you won't be able to unstick the part without breaking it...
                  • I have a white and a transparent PC sheet, the white one seems to be more flat than the transparent one, and sticks more too... I will need to sand it a bit more probably.
                  • Usually bending the sheet is enough to unstick the part... it starts to "crack" a bit, and then you can remove it. The problem here is that if the part is too small or too thin, the part will bend with the bed, and it's harder to remove.

                  And now the question for @Whitewolf:
                  After you told me about the "cup", I've been using the bulldog clips and the surface is really flat as per the probe, however, I've observed that even though the parts are not warped from the bed, the base of the part seems to be bended... and I'm thinking the problem is that even with the clips, the plastic bend the surface with cooling down, so the part is a bit bended, similarly when you've warp problems... did you observed this? Any advice?

                  Cheers!

                  Okercho
                  Custom Prusa i3 Hephestos with Duet Wi-Fi
                  E3d V6 with Bondtech BMG DirectDrive and PrecisionPiezo Sensor
                  Rebuilding Hypercube Evolution

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                  • undefined
                    llamatrails
                    last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 17:04

                    Instead of sanding, would matte (or frosted or satin) finish PC work ?

                    For example:
                    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00II1QY9Y/ref=s9_dcacsd_dcoop_bw_c_x_1_w

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                    • undefined
                      bot
                      last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 17:40

                      @okercho:

                      Hi there!

                      After several prints I must say I'm still impressed with PC, it's the best print surface I've used so far, although is not perfect of course… here a few impressions and a question:

                      • PLA and PETG (so far, the materials I've printed with) sticks perfectly... sometimes it sticks too much.
                      • The Z Offset is really important and depends on the material you're printing with... for PLA I need to setup a 0.1 offset, for PETG I'm still testing, but 0'25 seems to be OK. If you're closed to the bed, you won't be able to unstick the part without breaking it...
                      • I have a white and a transparent PC sheet, the white one seems to be more flat than the transparent one, and sticks more too... I will need to sand it a bit more probably.
                      • Usually bending the sheet is enough to unstick the part... it starts to "crack" a bit, and then you can remove it. The problem here is that if the part is too small or too thin, the part will bend with the bed, and it's harder to remove.

                      And now the question for @Whitewolf:
                      After you told me about the "cup", I've been using the bulldog clips and the surface is really flat as per the probe, however, I've observed that even though the parts are not warped from the bed, the base of the part seems to be bended... and I'm thinking the problem is that even with the clips, the plastic bend the surface with cooling down, so the part is a bit bended, similarly when you've warp problems... did you observed this? Any advice?

                      Cheers!

                      I do not use PC, but PEI as a build surface, which has the "cup" and is secured with a clamp to keep it flat, and have experienced the same thing – the bottom of very large prints will "cup" in the same way that the build surface would if released from the clamps.

                      I wonder if there is a way to get pieces of plastic that "cup" to be more flat by relieving the internal stresses that causes the warping? Maybe heating the pieces in an oven at controlled temperatures, while held between two precision flat plates?

                      *not actually a robot

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                      • undefined
                        DjDemonD
                        last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 19:16

                        This is why these surfaces are generally bonded with 3M 468 adhesive to the aluminium/glass substrate. Otherwise they warp too.

                        Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                        www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                        PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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                        • undefined
                          Whitewolf
                          last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 21:16

                          @DjDemonD:

                          This is why these surfaces are generally bonded with 3M 468 adhesive to the aluminium/glass substrate. Otherwise they warp too.

                          Only problem with that is you would need a mic6 plate underneath to be effective.

                          Also it would remove one of the key elements that make working with PC build plates easy and that is the ability to remove plates and flex to pop the part off and you would end up with some situations where parts were very difficult to remove

                          Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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                          • undefined
                            bot
                            last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 21:22

                            The phenomenon we are taking about isn't due to the build surface warping – it seems to be due to internal stresses of the build plate, when held flat, being transferred to the print. The prints are flat on the build plate, and the build plate is flat, but upon removal, the bottom of the print becomes convex, to a similar degree to the curve of the buildplate, if the buildplate wasn't being held flat -- I don't think adhesive under the plastic is going to alleviate this situation.

                            Also, keep in mind, I'm talking about thick pieces of PC or PEI, 3mm minimum in thickness.

                            *not actually a robot

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                            • undefined
                              Whitewolf
                              last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 21:23

                              @okercho:

                              Hi there!

                              After several prints I must say I'm still impressed with PC, it's the best print surface I've used so far, although is not perfect of course… here a few impressions and a question:

                              • PLA and PETG (so far, the materials I've printed with) sticks perfectly... sometimes it sticks too much.
                              • The Z Offset is really important and depends on the material you're printing with... for PLA I need to setup a 0.1 offset, for PETG I'm still testing, but 0'25 seems to be OK. If you're closed to the bed, you won't be able to unstick the part without breaking it...
                              • I have a white and a transparent PC sheet, the white one seems to be more flat than the transparent one, and sticks more too... I will need to sand it a bit more probably.
                              • Usually bending the sheet is enough to unstick the part... it starts to "crack" a bit, and then you can remove it. The problem here is that if the part is too small or too thin, the part will bend with the bed, and it's harder to remove.

                              And now the question for @Whitewolf:
                              After you told me about the "cup", I've been using the bulldog clips and the surface is really flat as per the probe, however, I've observed that even though the parts are not warped from the bed, the base of the part seems to be bended... and I'm thinking the problem is that even with the clips, the plastic bend the surface with cooling down, so the part is a bit bended, similarly when you've warp problems... did you observed this? Any advice?

                              Cheers!

                              Are you using heat with your bed? The majority of parts should easily pop off if no bed heat is used and it is properly sanded… I see many people doing things differently, different grit sand papers etc adding bed heat etc and then wondering why their results vary. I didnt start with 60 grit... i chose it because it worked better than others

                              You are sanding differently, you are squishing, are you running bed heat too? Honestly this works flawlessly for me, time and time again... it is not until you introduce these other elements that things tend not to work.

                              Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • undefined
                                Whitewolf
                                last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 21:32

                                @bot:

                                @okercho:

                                Hi there!

                                After several prints I must say I'm still impressed with PC, it's the best print surface I've used so far, although is not perfect of course… here a few impressions and a question:

                                • PLA and PETG (so far, the materials I've printed with) sticks perfectly... sometimes it sticks too much.
                                • The Z Offset is really important and depends on the material you're printing with... for PLA I need to setup a 0.1 offset, for PETG I'm still testing, but 0'25 seems to be OK. If you're closed to the bed, you won't be able to unstick the part without breaking it...
                                • I have a white and a transparent PC sheet, the white one seems to be more flat than the transparent one, and sticks more too... I will need to sand it a bit more probably.
                                • Usually bending the sheet is enough to unstick the part... it starts to "crack" a bit, and then you can remove it. The problem here is that if the part is too small or too thin, the part will bend with the bed, and it's harder to remove.

                                And now the question for @Whitewolf:
                                After you told me about the "cup", I've been using the bulldog clips and the surface is really flat as per the probe, however, I've observed that even though the parts are not warped from the bed, the base of the part seems to be bended... and I'm thinking the problem is that even with the clips, the plastic bend the surface with cooling down, so the part is a bit bended, similarly when you've warp problems... did you observed this? Any advice?

                                Cheers!

                                I do not use PC, but PEI as a build surface, which has the "cup" and is secured with a clamp to keep it flat, and have experienced the same thing – the bottom of very large prints will "cup" in the same way that the build surface would if released from the clamps.

                                I wonder if there is a way to get pieces of plastic that "cup" to be more flat by relieving the internal stresses that causes the warping? Maybe heating the pieces in an oven at controlled temperatures, while held between two precision flat plates?

                                Honestly i think bed heat is the issue here, most people run PEI with a heated bed.

                                I have printed objects as large as 80mil vase bottoms without any cupping…. but then again i do not use a heated bed and I am not having to squish anything to get first layer adhesion.... with the exception of a couple specialty filaments like Igus Iglidur, Nylon and Acetal POM. with those i either run a large brim with no bed heat or 55c bed heat with no brim but only on those specialty filaments, i have not had issues with 0 bed heat with any of the others that i have tested

                                I also always print at the low end of temps... if these guys are running PLA for instance at 215 then they are going to get a whole different set of issues.

                                Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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                                • undefined
                                  bot
                                  last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 21:36

                                  Heat was definitely my theory, as well. If Okercho responds positively that he was using bed heat, then I will consider that the primary suspected culprit.

                                  *not actually a robot

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                                  • undefined
                                    DjDemonD
                                    last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 21:41

                                    @Whitewolf:

                                    @DjDemonD:

                                    This is why these surfaces are generally bonded with 3M 468 adhesive to the aluminium/glass substrate. Otherwise they warp too.

                                    Only problem with that is you would need a mic6 plate underneath to be effective.

                                    Also it would remove one of the key elements that make working with PC build plates easy and that is the ability to remove plates and flex to pop the part off and you would end up with some situations where parts were very difficult to remove

                                    My current printbite surface is bonded to a machined tooling plate. Or I'd use glass.

                                    I've had a sample of 3mm thick PEI which deformed as the bed heated up.

                                    I haven't seen the effect you are describing in prints myself so a I apologise if I assumed this was the PC deforming under heating.

                                    Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                                    www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                                    PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • undefined
                                      Whitewolf
                                      last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 21:57

                                      @bot:

                                      Heat was definitely my theory, as well. If Okercho responds positively that he was using bed heat, then I will consider that the primary suspected culprit.

                                      He has done many things differently in preperation of his plate and the way he prints. I did a lot of testing before posting this thread… from starting with 120 grit paper on down till i settled on 60 grit and wet sanding.

                                      I tried all kinds of bed temps from 0 all the way up to 120c, i tried all kinds of filaments and different z offsets for every filament.... i even moved hotend temps up and down to see the results.

                                      I can tell you from experience, i had parts that were impossible to remove and needed sanding just to get the filament off. I had parts that removed too easily etc... every variable gave different results.

                                      If he has done things right there should not be more than a little twist of the part or a little tap with a scraper to get the part off (yes i have even removed 200mm single wall vases without breaking the part just by flexing the plate but flexing is usually not required for most parts only about 10% of the time if done right)

                                      If people want to venture off and do things differently then they will experience the same issues i experienced before finding what works and what doesnt.

                                      The point of me sharing the advice and thread was so others could skip past all that and get on with printing.

                                      Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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                                      • undefined
                                        Whitewolf
                                        last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 22:00

                                        Here is my x carriage printed on this very plate with Taulman Guidl!ne (PETG)

                                        One photo i gave a slight angle so you can see the surface, the other is direct on so you can see it is completely flat


                                        Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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                                        • undefined
                                          Whitewolf
                                          last edited by 23 Jul 2017, 22:10

                                          @DjDemonD:

                                          @Whitewolf:

                                          @DjDemonD:

                                          This is why these surfaces are generally bonded with 3M 468 adhesive to the aluminium/glass substrate. Otherwise they warp too.

                                          Only problem with that is you would need a mic6 plate underneath to be effective.

                                          Also it would remove one of the key elements that make working with PC build plates easy and that is the ability to remove plates and flex to pop the part off and you would end up with some situations where parts were very difficult to remove

                                          My current printbite surface is bonded to a machined tooling plate. Or I'd use glass.

                                          I've had a sample of 3mm thick PEI which deformed as the bed heated up.

                                          I haven't seen the effect you are describing in prints myself so a I apologise if I assumed this was the PC deforming under heating.

                                          That is the problem, it does deform if bed heat is used, you also get difficult to remove parts if heat is used… the only temp that I have found that can be used is up to 55c but this should only be done if required with a select few filaments.

                                          My rule of thumb is no heat unless i experience warping then ill try a brim if that doesnt work then ill set bed temp up to 55c but i have only had to do this with a select few specialty engineering filaments... so if someone finds themselves having different results then they need to ask themselves what they are doing differently, did they follow my advice to a T or did they venture off the path and do things a little differently

                                          Exploring the universe wherever the tech blows

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