Cold extrusion even the one of the pair disabled

sozkan

Dear Duet3D Community members and Admins,

Thankfully, I have successfully build and tuned nearly perfect situation a one of the largest Delta 3D printer with your contribution. We will build much more larger ones that present built was really good experience for us.

However, rarely having an issue in the middle of the printing one of the heater on the same heating core goes on emergency mode, eighter extreme or low temperature warning. But it is causing a big waste if happens.

The extreme temperature error as you may see in the photo that suddenly appearing and it disabling the one of the heater and continue printing with one! Since two heater set and specified in the config as single heating core it is cousing stress on the extruder motor and crushed the gears.

As you can see second heater shown 159.5 and printing stopped! Despite the one heater disabled, before stopping it, it continue printing until the second sensors shown low temperature. However during this time problems caused cold extrusion, drive gears and motors stress and and failed print output and few hundreds euros damage and several kilo waste of materials.

Things could be better if possible in firmware:

I believe, printing should be paused if one of them disabled ( presently it is waiting for the low temperature warning triggering to pause it)
Longer timeout before disabling the heater.

Could you please recommend what could be solutions to fix and avoid this problem?

The heating Block DyzeDesign Typhoon
Board: Duet 2 WiFi (2WiFi)
Duet Web Control 3.4.0-b7
Firmware: RepRapFirmware for Duet 2 WiFi/Ethernet 3.4.0beta7 (2021-12-16)
Duet WiFi Server Version: 1.26

I still could not figure out why it is happening!
I have tried:

Plug in and out connectors,
Changed the cables,
Replaced the hot ends
Opened and tightened the sensors on the heating core.

jay_s_uk

@sozkan maybe updating to the latest stable is the first good idea?

T3P3Tony

@sozkan are you saying both extruder heaters are in the same heating block? If so how do you have the tool defined? normally you would have that as a single tool, with multiple heaters.

sozkan

@jay_s_uk said in Cold extrusion even the one of the pair disabled:

Thanks, I will definitely try this one. However, can I backup the existing firmware?

Phaedrux

@sozkan said in Cold extrusion even the one of the pair disabled:

@jay_s_uk said in Cold extrusion even the one of the pair disabled:

Thanks, I will definitely try this one. However, can I backup the existing firmware?

Your configuration stays the same. You can upload whichever firmware version you want to switch between them, just upload the full firmware zip file for the release to the system tab in DWC.

https://github.com/Duet3D/RepRapFirmware/releases/download/3.4.5/Duet2and3Firmware-3.4.5.zip

You may also need to update your paneldue firmware.

https://docs.duet3d.com/en/User_manual/RepRapFirmware/Updating_PanelDue

sozkan

@T3P3Tony said in Cold extrusion even the one of the pair disabled:

@sozkan are you saying both extruder heaters are in the same heating block? If so how do you have the tool defined? normally you would have that as a single tool, with multiple heaters.

Yes, two heaters on the same block with individual driver and sensors tool defined as single one as the dyze design`s recommended parameters :

; HotEnd 
M308 S1 P"spi.cs1" Y"rtd-max31865"   		 	; configure sensor 1 as PT100 on pin e0temp
M308 S2 P"spi.cs2" Y"rtd-max31865"             ; configure sensor 2 as PT100 on pin e1temp
M950 H1 C"e0heat" T1                               ; create nozzle heater output on e0heat and map it to sensor 1
M950 H2 C"e1heat" T2                               ; create nozzle heater output on e1heat and map it to sensor 2


M307 H1 B1 S0.36 ; 2.5 mm;
M307 H2 B1 S0.51 ; 2.5 mm nozzle 
 
M570 H0 P5 T5 S240 ; H heater, T tolerance degree, S second persist.
M570 H1 P30 T30 S10 ; H heater, T tolerance degree, S second persist.
M570 H2 P30 T30 S10 ; H heater, T tolerance degree, S second persist.

M143 H1 S480 ;Set temperature max temp:
M143 H2 S480 ;Set temperature max temp:

M106 P0 I-1   ; no fan so disable it.

; Tools
M563 P0 D0 H2:1 F0 S"Typhoon"                      ; define tool 0
G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0                                    ; set tool 0 axis offsets
G10 P0 R0 S0

T3P3Tony

@sozkan ok yes so those are defined as i would expect them.

It may be an issue with the temperature sensor, is it always sensor 1 that that has the issue? Maybe look at temporarily switching them?

sozkan

@T3P3Tony said in Cold extrusion even the one of the pair disabled:

@sozkan ok yes so those are defined as i would expect them.

It may be an issue with the temperature sensor, is it always sensor 1 that that has the issue? Maybe look at temporarily switching them?

I thought about, but Dyze made everything very tight with their pcb connection, It is impossible. However I have replaced the block completely with new ones, still the same.

deckingman

@sozkan How did you arrive at the M307 values for the heater control parameters. Were these provided by Dyze? If so, you could try asking their advice because it seems a little strange that you are using bang-bang mode. Also, there is a significant difference between the two but I guess that might be due to different wattage heaters or different thermal characteristics of each zone. Is there some sort of themal break between zones? If not, then heat transfer between zones would be having some effect.

If it were me, I'd run PID tuning on both heaters to derive a better model than your bang-bang setting. If you search this forum, you'll come across one method that I devised to tune heaters where more than one is used.

sozkan

@deckingman Not exactly all parameters provided by Dyze, because heaters on the same blocks influence each other, tuning was quite difficult and took many trial and time to find those settings. As far as I remember earlier time PID tuning was not possible together. I had to run one by one. if it is possible, I would definitely run PID tuning if it is possible to run together. However, bangbang mode especially on heated bed works problem free.

deckingman

@sozkan If you are unwilling to tune the heaters individually as I suggested, then tuning both heaters together is a breeze. Just tune the tool, rather than each heater. Just because bang-bang mode works OK on a heated bed with a large thermal mass, doesn't mean it's the best option to use on a hot end.