Issues printing onto aluminum build plate with adhesive
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Hi all,
I posted a few weeks back about printing directly onto aluminum. I am using this adhesive to help my prints stick. https://github.com/MakerBogans/docs/wiki/Printer-goop#the-stuff-that-makes-your-printed-parts-stick
This "goop" works wonderfully on my boro glass beds. PLA, PETG, TPU, PC, etc. all stick wonderfully, but the issue is sometimes it sticks too well, and I have had issues with some small chunks being ripped out of my glass. Obviously this is no good, so I ordered a few ATP-5 3/8" aluminum plates that I cut to size and am trying to use as a build plate. The issue is, I cannot get prints to stick reliably to it with this goop. I have thoroughly washed the plates, to remove any machining oil from them, and I have also taken one of the plates and sanded/scuffed one side of the plate with a scotch brite pad. I still can't get a good first layer, and adhesion is wayyyyy down.
I noticed on the plates where I had not scuffed the surface with the scotch brite, that the goop was not adhering well to the plate. This is what prompted me to scuff it with the scotch brite pad. I'm assuming that a smoother surface will cause less adhesion of the goop here, and that seems to be true, but I am still having issues with prints sticking.
Does anybody know why this is not working and what I can do to remedy it? I bought these to print PC and other high temp material. My build plate is definitely getting to temp before printing. Is there some sort of surface treatment I need to perform? Do I need to anodize the plate or something?
Thank you.
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@Surgikill Try some Magigoo. To save some money thin it down 50% with distilled water and put it in a spray bottle. Apply a few squirts then wipe it over the bed.
Note that the bed must be cool to apply the Magigoo as it dries very quickly on a bed over 30C.
The disadvantage is that you must wait for the bed to cool back down below 30C to remove your parts. It sticks REALLY well.
Even thinned down you can do up to 5 prints before you have to reapply.
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@Surgikill, not only is aluminum reactive but it is one of two ingredients in thermite (the other ingredient is iron oxide). It is also explosive in a fine enough form when it is airborne. It is used in fireworks. In any case, it must be fine enough to be dangerous.
If you don't remove the oxide film that forms on the surface, paint will not stick. To make paint stick you need to clean off the surface film and give it a coating of primer before the paint. -
I have been using the "BuiltTak Flex Plate System" for quite some time and it works fine for me.
Frederick
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@tas This formula is basically magigoo, but at 1/10th the price.
@jens55 Not really sure how thermite plays into this, but I don't think I can paint the bed. I might be able to get away with grill paint, but not sure how well that can hold up.
@fcwilt Unfortunately, that won't really work for the temperatures and materials I am looking to print.
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@Surgikill, thermite has nothing to do with the situation but was simply mentioned to impress how reactive aluminum is. The bottom line is that aluminum is not suitable, by itself, as a build plate.
Look at what commercial high temperature printers use or what is specifically advertised for high temperature use.
I personally use glass, just regular glass, not even borosilicate. I guess if you intend to go higher than 150c, borosilicate might be the way to go. Yes, if your print parameters are off, you will loose chunks of glass from sticking too much. Too high a temperature for the material being printed or too close a nozzle distance can cause this. You could try using a thin coat of glue stick to act as a separator to help with the release. In my case I have a glue stick dissolved in water in a bottle. I squirt a small bit of it on the build plate and use a paper tissue to wipe this tiny bit all over the build plate. You can't tell it's there but if you were to take a razor blade and scrape it over the bed you will see it's there. -
@jens55 Yes, I've used glue stick before. It works well, but not for some materials. Print parameters are just fine. What is recommended for high temp use >150C? What do commercial printers use for a build surface?
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@Surgikill, sorry, no clue what is used > 150C. Heck I wouldn't even know how you would keep the heater attached to the bed as the normal adhesive that is commonly used will fail at those temperatures.
I have never seen a pad heater that is good beyond 150C. All the printing materials you list use less than 150C for bed temperature. Looking at PC, borosilicate glass with a layer of gluestick glue as a seperation layer is recommended. PEI might be a suitable surface. FR4 might work. I think it all depends on the material you are printing with. -
@Surgikill said in Issues printing onto aluminum build plate with adhesive:
@fcwilt Unfortunately, that won't really work for the temperatures and materials I am looking to print.
Interesting. What temps and materials are incompatible with their system?
Frederick
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@fcwilt PEI and other high temp engineering grade thermoplastics. I don't want to go spending 100$ on a system that is 1) Incompatible with my bed and 2) Will be damaged by the materials and heat from the bed.
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@Surgikill said in Issues printing onto aluminum build plate with adhesive:
@fcwilt PEI and other high temp engineering grade thermoplastics. I don't want to go spending 100$ on a system that is 1) Incompatible with my bed and 2) Will be damaged by the materials and heat from the bed.
You can print PEI using BuildTak - unless you are using temps way beyond the norm.
Thanks.
Frederick
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I think I might have found my problem. Build plate is way below setpoint. I assumed that thermal transfer would be better than glass, but I'm guessing the heatmass is preventing that. Setpoint of 60c and build plate surface is only reading 43C. Bumped setpoint up to 80C and build plate was at 59c. Seems to be printing fine now.
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@Surgikill yup, that would do it ..... I have a larger printer with a glass plate and I had to introduce a lengthy delay when starting up to account for the delay of the glass plate heating up. The sensor is right next to the heater so it shows a reasonably quick heat-up but the thermal resistance between aluminum bed and fairly thick glass plate requires much longer to get up to temperature.
An aluminum plate also makes for a nice heat sink (not too many heat sinks are made of glass
) which could further complicate life.
You might want to verify that, with the much higher temperature setpoint, your aluminum build plate does not overheat 10 or 15 minutes after the print starts up. -
@jens55 Well, at 60C setpoint it stabilized at 43C. I monitored it for an hour and noticed no upward trend, so I'd say it's steady state at that point.
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@Surgikill yes, sounds like you have things covered.
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Have you tried kapton tape (which is extremely heat resistant), or the off-brand Koptan that comes from China (and is MUCH cheaper). They are an absolutely marvelous print surface. The only trick is the initial application of the tape, to get it smooth an bubble-free. Once you have a nice layer, it lasts a very long time. The silicone adhesive on it sticks nicely to aluminum, and works fine up to beyond 300C. I bought a roll of 9" wide tape (the Koptan from China), I think a pound of it, a few years ago for maybe $40. It is a lifetime supply.
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@mendenmh I'll have to try that if I have issues. Right now the goop that I'm using is working perfectly
