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    Nema 23 Questions

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved
    Tuning and tweaking
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    • TimVukmanundefined
      TimVukman
      last edited by

      Hi:

      I haven't left, I was just busy rebuilding the printer again.

      So, to the important part first.
      ein Arm und ein Bein according to google translate, which does not understand context or nuances:) For all I know, the saying may not even be used in German. I find other languages challenging since they seem to have a whole different word for everything!:)

      I removed my Y axis. It was never as solid as I wanted it to be. I build another box out of extruded 20 x 40 V-Slot and put a linear slide bearing on each one, I have a carriage plate spanning the two rails. On the carriage plate, I have two (one at each end - front and back) bronze threaded bearings that the lead screw goes through.

      The hot bed is mounted to two rails mounted to the carriage plate. It is a very solid assembly with excellent movement. I went back to the Nema 17 motor and changed the config.g setting back to what they were before the Nema 23.

      I printed an almost perfect configuration cube. (the corners aren't perfectly square and I know I have some play in the X axis.

      Having said and done all that, I think that I am going to replace the threaded rod with belts. Physics clearly implies that belts would be smoother and provide less resistance to motion. So, I have seen pulley ends with 16 teeth, 20 teeth, etc. Is the number of teeth important? What about belt size?

      This just never ends 🙂 I was printing something last night, and I received a heater fault message. I now get a constant 2000 degree reading on the hot end heater. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
      Thanks
      Tim

      deckingmanundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • deckingmanundefined
        deckingman @TimVukman
        last edited by

        @timvukman said in Nema 23 Questions:

        So, I have seen pulley ends with 16 teeth, 20 teeth, etc. Is the number of teeth important? What about belt size?

        This just never ends 🙂 I was printing something last night, and I received a heater fault message. I now get a constant 2000 degree reading on the hot end heater. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
        Thanks
        Tim

        Pulley diameter doesn't matter too much IMO. I prefer 20 teeth as the bend radius is a but less and they seem to be more commonly available. If you do the maths, 20 tooth on a gt2 belt is 40mm per revolution so you get 5 full steps per mm (one full step is 0.2mm). With a 16 tooth pulley it's 32mm per revolution so one full step is 0.16mm which is a bit of an odd number. But in either case, for resolutions less than 0.2mm, you have to rely on micro-stepping for accuracy so not much to choose between them.

        6mm wide belt is fine. I use it to throw 3Kgs around at highish speed, so for your printer it'll be perfectly OK.

        2,000 degree C usually means something is open circuit (e.g. bad crimp or broken wire)

        Ian
        https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
        https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

        wilrikerundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • TimVukmanundefined
          TimVukman
          last edited by

          Thanks
          I shall start understanding what I have in my collection of pulleys.

          I replaced the entire extruder with a new E3d V6 that I had just received. This one did not have a plastic tube in so it jammed up on me. I now have the tube all the way in and it is extruding. It's making a mess which I would normally say is over extruding, but it is using the same bowden as the previous one which was laying down nice lines.

          More investigation required, I guess, but not heater error anymore.
          Tim

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • wilrikerundefined
            wilriker @deckingman
            last edited by

            @deckingman said in Nema 23 Questions:

            6mm wide belt is fine. I use it to throw 3Kgs around at highish speed, so for your printer it'll be perfectly OK.

            And I'd say go for genuine Gates from the start (I failed at that). They are not that much more expensive than the Chinese knock-offs but will definitely be better quality. You can search for GATES PowerGrip GT3 xxx-2MGT3-6 where the xxx is usually a length in mm. They seem to only come in closed loops (as far as what I have found) but you can of course cut them to what you need. For the longest one I found so far with 1830mm I would have to pay a little less than 9 € plus shipping - 2m Chinese belt usually cost around 3 € (admittedly including shipping) so not reason to go with the cheaper ones unless you need 10s of meters of belt.

            And don't worry that they are called GT3 - this is just the new product generation and fully compatible to GT2.

            Manuel
            Duet 3 6HC (v0.6) with RPi 4B on a custom Cartesian
            with probably always latest firmware/DWC (incl. betas or self-compiled)
            My Tool Collection

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            • TimVukmanundefined
              TimVukman
              last edited by

              @wilriker said in Nema 23 Questions:

              GATES PowerGrip GT3 xxx-2MGT3-6

              Thanks for the info. I found them on Amazon.ca, but not sure it I have length choices. Getting stuff from the UK takes almost as long as China. I haven't checked the US yet.

              Since I changed out the whole hot end, I will need to recalibrate the bowden extruder by the look of the prints. What would be a good hot end? It seems the E3d V6 is touchy to get the flow set up. There are so many choices that it's hard for my level of experience to make a choice.
              Thanks

              deckingmanundefined wilrikerundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • deckingmanundefined
                deckingman @TimVukman
                last edited by

                @timvukman Personally I'd go for the lite version of the V6 unless you really want to run higher than about 235degC. It has a PTFE liner which goes right through the heat sink and is much less prone to jamming. If you already have a V6, then I think you only need but the heat sink (and some PTFE tubing).

                Ian
                https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

                TimVukmanundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • wilrikerundefined
                  wilriker @TimVukman
                  last edited by

                  @timvukman As it usually is: while researching for where I can buy them in/from Germany at the lowest price I was stumbling across a Canadian shop also. But for the life of me I cannot find it anymore. 🤦

                  Manuel
                  Duet 3 6HC (v0.6) with RPi 4B on a custom Cartesian
                  with probably always latest firmware/DWC (incl. betas or self-compiled)
                  My Tool Collection

                  Phaedruxundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • TimVukmanundefined
                    TimVukman
                    last edited by

                    Hi wilriker:

                    I did find the home site for gates belts, and I found a ton of automotive belts. I did see indications that the size I was searching for existed. I did not find it though.

                    In the meantime, today I switched my X and Y drives back to belts, and each is running on a linear bearing instead of wheels. I found the original belts and though I had to extend them, they are installed and tight enough that there is no skipping.

                    Currently printing a 20mm cube that looks fantastic. I missed the step of changing the 500mm/sec for the threaded rod down to the 100mm/sec for belts. Very smooth!

                    I used the extruder bar on the web interface and turned it down to 80%. Not getting the splotches of filament anymore.

                    Thanks so much for the assistance and suggestions. Very happy. I will find the Gates belts. Gorilla Super Glue works very well for extending belts. Just cut off a section and apply the glue so the teeth of one part mesh to the teeth of the next part. Then glue the last part back on teeth to teeth and leave the backward section inside the V-Slot.

                    deckingmanundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Phaedruxundefined
                      Phaedrux Moderator @wilriker
                      last edited by

                      @wilriker said in Nema 23 Questions:

                      @timvukman As it usually is: while researching for where I can buy them in/from Germany at the lowest price I was stumbling across a Canadian shop also. But for the life of me I cannot find it anymore. 🤦

                      There's only so many places in Canada to get printer stuff.

                      spool3D.ca
                      Makerparts.ca (openbuilds distributer)
                      Filaments.ca

                      Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                      wilrikerundefined TimVukmanundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • wilrikerundefined
                        wilriker @Phaedrux
                        last edited by

                        @phaedrux said in Nema 23 Questions:

                        There's only so many places in Canada to get printer stuff.

                        I cannot comment on that but as @TimVukman pointed out Gates belts are mostly used in automotive and I guess there are more shops based in Canada to get these kinds of parts. 😉

                        Manuel
                        Duet 3 6HC (v0.6) with RPi 4B on a custom Cartesian
                        with probably always latest firmware/DWC (incl. betas or self-compiled)
                        My Tool Collection

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                        • deckingmanundefined
                          deckingman @TimVukman
                          last edited by

                          @timvukman I've been using generic (non-Gates) belts for many years and never had a problem. That's moving a very heavy print head (around 1.5 Kgs) around at high speeds and accelerations. Other users, on other forums have reported that they can't really tell any difference between generic and Gates belts in terms of any print artefacts. I'm not saying that all generic belts are good and maybe there are some cheap Chinese ones around that have issues, but I've never come across any in my own personal experience.

                          Ian
                          https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                          https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

                          TimVukmanundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • TimVukmanundefined
                            TimVukman @Phaedrux
                            last edited by TimVukman

                            @phaedrux

                            Thanks for the Canadian distributor list. I have not dealt with Filamensts.ca yet. I'll go check out the products they carry.

                            Tim
                            edited to fix spelling

                            Phaedruxundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • TimVukmanundefined
                              TimVukman @deckingman
                              last edited by

                              @deckingman

                              Thanks. Good to know feedback. I'm not sure how much use one would have to have to stretch them. I would think that it would take a while. I know from cutting mine that there is a layer of fiber inside the belt for reinforcement, so it may last quite some time without issue.

                              deckingmanundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • TimVukmanundefined
                                TimVukman @deckingman
                                last edited by

                                @deckingman
                                Sorry, I missed this in the bunch that came in since I last checked the board. Thanks, that's the one I ordered!

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • deckingmanundefined
                                  deckingman @TimVukman
                                  last edited by

                                  @timvukman Yes. They are timing belts. Their function is not to stretch.

                                  I've read several of posts on various forums from people who have tried steel cored belts, thinking that they would be better from a stretching point of view. Then they fail because the steel cores break through being bent around a small pulley, the straightened, then bent - etc etc. Then when the steel core breaks, thee is no support for the rubber so the belt stretches which completely defeats the object of having steel cores.

                                  I think its the tooth profile and what the teeth are made of that is the important thing. If these aren't right, they will wear because of the bad material itself, or because the teeth don't mesh properly with the pulley. If there is a build up of black dust around the pulleys, that's a good indication that something is amiss.

                                  Having said all that, I consider belts to be consumable items which should be replaced periodically - just as one replaces can belts on cars.

                                  Ian
                                  https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                                  https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

                                  TimVukmanundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Phaedruxundefined
                                    Phaedrux Moderator @TimVukman
                                    last edited by

                                    @timvukman said in Nema 23 Questions:

                                    @phaedrux

                                    Thanks for the Canadian distributor list. I have not dealt with Filamensts.ca yet. I'll go check out the products they carry.

                                    Tim
                                    edited to fix spelling

                                    They have a lot of harder to find specialty stuff. And the house brand they use is pretty decent.

                                    Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                                    TimVukmanundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • TimVukmanundefined
                                      TimVukman @deckingman
                                      last edited by

                                      @deckingman
                                      That's not a great ad for steel core belts, but I am not surprised. I wonder if they would be a good target for 60 tooth wheels. The bend arc would be much more relaxed.

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • TimVukmanundefined
                                        TimVukman @Phaedrux
                                        last edited by

                                        @phaedrux
                                        Well, that was quite the education on what is available in the filament market. I had no idea there were so many choices. Thanks!

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • TimVukmanundefined
                                          TimVukman
                                          last edited by

                                          Hi
                                          In going back to belt drive, I've had some issue with skipping, but they seemed to be mechanical. My X axis is mounted inside the printer frame although it is a 20x40 mounted vertically with half of it above the frame. It's been a challenge to find a way to mount the motor so that the gear with the teeth is at the end of the axis.

                                          I'm at a point where the first layer tends to wander around a bit on X. It seems to eventually decide where it wants to be while still in the first layer and then it starts printing properly. I'm only using a fairly small arc of the gear motor so I suspect I need to increase the number of teeth that I am engaging.

                                          I think I will end up mounting the motor to the outside frame and extending the belt.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • wilrikerundefined
                                            wilriker
                                            last edited by

                                            Finally I came around to create the online calculator. See this thread. 🙂

                                            Manuel
                                            Duet 3 6HC (v0.6) with RPi 4B on a custom Cartesian
                                            with probably always latest firmware/DWC (incl. betas or self-compiled)
                                            My Tool Collection

                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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