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    Jerky movements, again

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    • roboduetundefined
      roboduet
      last edited by

      Yet another video, I put my phone directly on moving caret to record better sound.

      https://youtu.be/ljaSBse_A9g

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      • deckingmanundefined
        deckingman
        last edited by

        Seems like I need to go to Specsavers. What are we supposed to be looking at? Have you actually tried printing anything and if so, is the printed object misshapen?

        Ian
        https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
        https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

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        • roboduetundefined
          roboduet
          last edited by

          I'm just want to say that something wrong : ) I'm not experiencing any real problems with printing using Duet WiFi, I'm happy Duet WiFi owner, but this is something abnormal.

          Yes, this clicking pattern is slightly visible on printed objects, but I'm unable take good quality photo to show this. And this almost does not affect print quality.

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          • deckingmanundefined
            deckingman
            last edited by

            I can't see any difference in the movement between the first two videos but maybe that's because I'm an old guy who wears glasses. You seem to be trying to make videos that record the sound, so are you saying that it sounds different?

            Ian
            https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
            https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

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            • lignumaquaundefined
              lignumaqua
              last edited by

              I ran roboduet's file on my Rostock Mx V2 and can confirm that there is a different sound as he describes. You can definitely hear a tick which might line up with the interpolation point. Both 128 and 256 microstep without interpolation are smooth and don't have the tick. There is perhaps a discontinuity at some point in the interpolation. I couldn’t hear this when running the same test on my CoreXY, so perhaps it's specific to deltas?

              However, I also ran print tests and cannot see any difference in the results! So, to me at least, this appears to be of academic interest only.

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              • roboduetundefined
                roboduet
                last edited by

                @deckingman:

                I can't see any difference in the movement between the first two videos but maybe that's because I'm an old guy who wears glasses. You seem to be trying to make videos that record the sound, so are you saying that it sounds different?

                Yes, that's what I want to say. English is not my native language so sometimes I cannot say what I want in few words so other people can understand me.

                Can you hear clicking (5-10 times per second) sound on last video with black picture? This clicks are felt, if I touch a finger to the carriage. This feels like tower caret stops moving for few milliseconds and then starts moving again.

                But there is no any clicks or other sounds then I change microstepping to 1/256. Everything else is the same - maximum jerk settings, accelerations, speed, motor currents and so on.

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                • roboduetundefined
                  roboduet
                  last edited by

                  @lignumaqua:

                  I ran roboduet's file on my Rostock Mx V2 and can confirm that there is a different sound as he describes.
                  However, I also ran print tests and cannot see any difference in the results! So, to me at least, this appears to be of academic interest only.

                  Thank you very much! At least this is confirmed now by other people too.

                  As about differences in print quality - I can see slight differences in external surface, but I'm sure this is absolutely not a problem for me. I can try to find macro photo friendly plastic and right lighting to take photo with differences. Also I'm not sure what is affecting print quality - true 1/256 microstepping instead of interpolated 1/16 or this clicking issue.

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                  • dc42undefined
                    dc42 administrators
                    last edited by

                    The interpolation is only completely accurate when the carriages are moving at constant speed, which is rarely the case on a delta printer. So my guess is that the clicking noises are produced when the drive gets the interpolation wrong, perhaps when a carriage reverses direction in the middle of a move. Dynamically varying microstepping will solve that, when I get round to implementing it.

                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                    • roboduetundefined
                      roboduet
                      last edited by

                      I hear this clicking sounds with interpolation disabled at 1/16 microstepping.

                      Also seems like I found bug, printer completely freezes (including ESP8266 web server code) then I executing this commands: [c]G28[/c] to home printer, [c]M350 X16 Y16 Z16 I0[/c] to disable interpolation (interpolation enabled in config) and then start printing file without (!) homing after executing M350 command. This is reproducible every time I enter this commands.

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                      • dc42undefined
                        dc42 administrators
                        last edited by

                        @roboduet:

                        I hear this clicking sounds with interpolation disabled at 1/16 microstepping.

                        Also seems like I found bug, printer completely freezes (including ESP8266 web server code) then I executing this commands: [c]G28[/c] to home printer, [c]M350 X16 Y16 Z16 I0[/c] to disable interpolation (interpolation enabled in config) and then start printing file without (!) homing after executing M350 command. This is reproducible every time I enter this commands.

                        I can guess what is happening. Executing M350 flags the axes as not homed, so for every move that your file asks for there will be a error message generated. The Duet will run out of message buffers, so it will no longer process status requests. Sending a pause command via USB or possibly PanelDue may still work. Or you can wait until the file finishes"printing".

                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                        • roboduetundefined
                          roboduet
                          last edited by

                          @dc42:

                          So my guess is that the clicking noises are produced when the drive gets the interpolation wrong, perhaps when a carriage reverses direction in the middle of a move.

                          Just small note about interpolation and this clicks - linear (straight) movement of effector does not produce this clicks with interpolation enabled. At the start of first two videos effector goes down to Z = 10.3 mm at X0 and Y0 and then goes to start of circle at X-49.744 Y1.647. This straight move is without clicks.

                          To summarize my messages:

                          Moves with clicks: segmented (many g-codes with short straight lines) movement around circle regardless of interpolation mode at 1/16 microstepping.

                          Moves without clicks: straight movement with any microstepping setting or segmented movement around circle with 1/256 microstepping.

                          I will try tomorrow to create small script that produces straight segmented moves and slightly bent (extremely large radius) segmented moves to test how angle between two straight movement g-codes affects this.

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                          • roboduetundefined
                            roboduet
                            last edited by

                            I'm just created simple script that produces segmented (0.5 mm) straight movement from X-50 Y-50 to X50 Y50 and then goes back to X-50 Y-50 with single g-code:

                            [[language]]
                            T0
                            G21 ; set units to millimeters
                            G90 ; use absolute coordinates
                            M83 ; use relative distances for extrusion
                            G1 X-50 Y-50 Z10.300 F4800
                            G1 X-49.5 Y-49.5 F960
                            G1 X-49 Y-49
                            G1 X-48.5 Y-48.5
                            G1 X-48 Y-48
                            G1 X-47.5 Y-47.5
                            G1 X-47 Y-47
                            G1 X-46.5 Y-46.5
                            G1 X-46 Y-46
                            G1 X-45.5 Y-45.5
                            G1 X-45 Y-45
                            G1 X-44.5 Y-44.5
                            G1 X-44 Y-44
                            G1 X-43.5 Y-43.5
                            G1 X-43 Y-43
                            G1 X-42.5 Y-42.5
                            G1 X-42 Y-42
                            G1 X-41.5 Y-41.5
                            G1 X-41 Y-41
                            G1 X-40.5 Y-40.5
                            G1 X-40 Y-40
                            G1 X-39.5 Y-39.5
                            G1 X-39 Y-39
                            G1 X-38.5 Y-38.5
                            G1 X-38 Y-38
                            G1 X-37.5 Y-37.5
                            G1 X-37 Y-37
                            G1 X-36.5 Y-36.5
                            G1 X-36 Y-36
                            G1 X-35.5 Y-35.5
                            G1 X-35 Y-35
                            G1 X-34.5 Y-34.5
                            G1 X-34 Y-34
                            G1 X-33.5 Y-33.5
                            G1 X-33 Y-33
                            G1 X-32.5 Y-32.5
                            G1 X-32 Y-32
                            G1 X-31.5 Y-31.5
                            G1 X-31 Y-31
                            G1 X-30.5 Y-30.5
                            G1 X-30 Y-30
                            G1 X-29.5 Y-29.5
                            G1 X-29 Y-29
                            G1 X-28.5 Y-28.5
                            G1 X-28 Y-28
                            G1 X-27.5 Y-27.5
                            G1 X-27 Y-27
                            G1 X-26.5 Y-26.5
                            G1 X-26 Y-26
                            G1 X-25.5 Y-25.5
                            G1 X-25 Y-25
                            G1 X-24.5 Y-24.5
                            G1 X-24 Y-24
                            G1 X-23.5 Y-23.5
                            G1 X-23 Y-23
                            G1 X-22.5 Y-22.5
                            G1 X-22 Y-22
                            G1 X-21.5 Y-21.5
                            G1 X-21 Y-21
                            G1 X-20.5 Y-20.5
                            G1 X-20 Y-20
                            G1 X-19.5 Y-19.5
                            G1 X-19 Y-19
                            G1 X-18.5 Y-18.5
                            G1 X-18 Y-18
                            G1 X-17.5 Y-17.5
                            G1 X-17 Y-17
                            G1 X-16.5 Y-16.5
                            G1 X-16 Y-16
                            G1 X-15.5 Y-15.5
                            G1 X-15 Y-15
                            G1 X-14.5 Y-14.5
                            G1 X-14 Y-14
                            G1 X-13.5 Y-13.5
                            G1 X-13 Y-13
                            G1 X-12.5 Y-12.5
                            G1 X-12 Y-12
                            G1 X-11.5 Y-11.5
                            G1 X-11 Y-11
                            G1 X-10.5 Y-10.5
                            G1 X-10 Y-10
                            G1 X-9.5 Y-9.5
                            G1 X-9 Y-9
                            G1 X-8.5 Y-8.5
                            G1 X-8 Y-8
                            G1 X-7.5 Y-7.5
                            G1 X-7 Y-7
                            G1 X-6.5 Y-6.5
                            G1 X-6 Y-6
                            G1 X-5.5 Y-5.5
                            G1 X-5 Y-5
                            G1 X-4.5 Y-4.5
                            G1 X-4 Y-4
                            G1 X-3.5 Y-3.5
                            G1 X-3 Y-3
                            G1 X-2.5 Y-2.5
                            G1 X-2 Y-2
                            G1 X-1.5 Y-1.5
                            G1 X-1 Y-1
                            G1 X-0.5 Y-0.5
                            G1 X0 Y0
                            G1 X0.5 Y0.5
                            G1 X1 Y1
                            G1 X1.5 Y1.5
                            G1 X2 Y2
                            G1 X2.5 Y2.5
                            G1 X3 Y3
                            G1 X3.5 Y3.5
                            G1 X4 Y4
                            G1 X4.5 Y4.5
                            G1 X5 Y5
                            G1 X5.5 Y5.5
                            G1 X6 Y6
                            G1 X6.5 Y6.5
                            G1 X7 Y7
                            G1 X7.5 Y7.5
                            G1 X8 Y8
                            G1 X8.5 Y8.5
                            G1 X9 Y9
                            G1 X9.5 Y9.5
                            G1 X10 Y10
                            G1 X10.5 Y10.5
                            G1 X11 Y11
                            G1 X11.5 Y11.5
                            G1 X12 Y12
                            G1 X12.5 Y12.5
                            G1 X13 Y13
                            G1 X13.5 Y13.5
                            G1 X14 Y14
                            G1 X14.5 Y14.5
                            G1 X15 Y15
                            G1 X15.5 Y15.5
                            G1 X16 Y16
                            G1 X16.5 Y16.5
                            G1 X17 Y17
                            G1 X17.5 Y17.5
                            G1 X18 Y18
                            G1 X18.5 Y18.5
                            G1 X19 Y19
                            G1 X19.5 Y19.5
                            G1 X20 Y20
                            G1 X20.5 Y20.5
                            G1 X21 Y21
                            G1 X21.5 Y21.5
                            G1 X22 Y22
                            G1 X22.5 Y22.5
                            G1 X23 Y23
                            G1 X23.5 Y23.5
                            G1 X24 Y24
                            G1 X24.5 Y24.5
                            G1 X25 Y25
                            G1 X25.5 Y25.5
                            G1 X26 Y26
                            G1 X26.5 Y26.5
                            G1 X27 Y27
                            G1 X27.5 Y27.5
                            G1 X28 Y28
                            G1 X28.5 Y28.5
                            G1 X29 Y29
                            G1 X29.5 Y29.5
                            G1 X30 Y30
                            G1 X30.5 Y30.5
                            G1 X31 Y31
                            G1 X31.5 Y31.5
                            G1 X32 Y32
                            G1 X32.5 Y32.5
                            G1 X33 Y33
                            G1 X33.5 Y33.5
                            G1 X34 Y34
                            G1 X34.5 Y34.5
                            G1 X35 Y35
                            G1 X35.5 Y35.5
                            G1 X36 Y36
                            G1 X36.5 Y36.5
                            G1 X37 Y37
                            G1 X37.5 Y37.5
                            G1 X38 Y38
                            G1 X38.5 Y38.5
                            G1 X39 Y39
                            G1 X39.5 Y39.5
                            G1 X40 Y40
                            G1 X40.5 Y40.5
                            G1 X41 Y41
                            G1 X41.5 Y41.5
                            G1 X42 Y42
                            G1 X42.5 Y42.5
                            G1 X43 Y43
                            G1 X43.5 Y43.5
                            G1 X44 Y44
                            G1 X44.5 Y44.5
                            G1 X45 Y45
                            G1 X45.5 Y45.5
                            G1 X46 Y46
                            G1 X46.5 Y46.5
                            G1 X47 Y47
                            G1 X47.5 Y47.5
                            G1 X48 Y48
                            G1 X48.5 Y48.5
                            G1 X49 Y49
                            G1 X49.5 Y49.5
                            G1 X-50 Y-50
                            
                            

                            Update: also click frequency directly depends on frequency of g-codes, seems like this clicks going between g-code commands. Maybe something like fill of next command queue or read-ahead of g-codes freezing movements?

                            Example of low-frequency clicks with longer segments:

                            [[language]]
                            T0
                            G21 ; set units to millimeters
                            G90 ; use absolute coordinates
                            M83 ; use relative distances for extrusion
                            G1 X-50 Y-50 Z10.300 F4800.000
                            G1 X-50 Y-50 F960
                            G1 X-45 Y-45
                            G1 X-40 Y-40
                            G1 X-35 Y-35
                            G1 X-30 Y-30
                            G1 X-25 Y-25
                            G1 X-20 Y-20
                            G1 X-15 Y-15
                            G1 X-10 Y-10
                            G1 X-5 Y-5
                            G1 X0 Y0
                            G1 X5 Y5
                            G1 X10 Y10
                            G1 X15 Y15
                            G1 X20 Y20
                            G1 X25 Y25
                            G1 X30 Y30
                            G1 X35 Y35
                            G1 X40 Y40
                            G1 X45 Y45
                            
                            

                            Now I'm sure that this clicks are result of a lot of g-code fragments. David, I think that something wrong.

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                            • roboduetundefined
                              roboduet
                              last edited by

                              @dc42:

                              Thanks for your example. My printers are out of action until my office refurbishment is complete, but I'll try it out when I can. Feel free to remind me on Wednesday if you don't get a response before then.

                              David, did you have time to check this? It seems to me that RRF produces very small pauses after each g-code, this pauses causes jerky moves. Even linear (straight?) movement of effector on my delta produces this pauses. You can view example g-codes in my previous post. But 1-line (w/o segments) g-code does not produce this pauses.

                              Now I can hear this pauses almost in every print with smooth curved movements 🙂

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                              • botundefined
                                bot
                                last edited by

                                I think if I listen very carefully to my delta running a 0.8.5 I can hear similar sounds. Can you post photos of the surface defects it creates on the sides of the print? I'm sorry if you posted this already and I missed it.

                                *not actually a robot

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                                • roboduetundefined
                                  roboduet
                                  last edited by

                                  @bot:

                                  I think if I listen very carefully to my delta running a 0.8.5 I can hear similar sounds. Can you post photos of the surface defects it creates on the sides of the print? I'm sorry if you posted this already and I missed it.

                                  I said earlier that I'm unable to take macro photos of differences with acceptable quality of photo. I will try later with another plastic colors and right light. UPD: this defects looks like vertical columns of very small plastic blobs on surface of printed part.

                                  Also I said before that print quality isn't a problem for me, I'm happy Duet WiFi owner, but I still think that something is wrong here with g-code processing or something another.

                                  That's why I'm trying to draw David's attention to this problem. But seems like he is very busy in the last month and haven't time to check this.

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                                  • botundefined
                                    bot
                                    last edited by

                                    Okay, no worries. I just figured since I checked the other day and noticed a faint sound that is similar to yours, and with the same consistency, that I'd let you know. I don't notice any print defects at all that I can attribute to this noise, however.

                                    *not actually a robot

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                                    • dc42undefined
                                      dc42 administrators
                                      last edited by

                                      I am sorry, it is still on my list to investigate.

                                      Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                      Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                      http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                                      • dc42undefined
                                        dc42 administrators
                                        last edited by

                                        I finally got round to testing this. I can hear and feel clicks on my deltas but they are very faint, perhaps because my printer has 0.9deg motors.

                                        At this stage I can think of two possible explanations:

                                        1. At the boundaries between segments, the motor positions each have to be rounded to the nearest microstep. Interpolation doesn't help here. The clicks may just be the result of this rounding.

                                        2. Or there could be a problem with the precise time interval between the start of the old move and the start of the new move. Currently, the new move starts as soon as the old move has taken its last step; but the first step of the new move won't happen until it is due.

                                        I will investigate further.

                                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                                        • roboduetundefined
                                          roboduet
                                          last edited by

                                          Thank you, David!

                                          Also I noticed that in 1/256 microstepping mode this clicks not audible nor feeling. Maybe this can help to investigate.

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                                          • roboduetundefined
                                            roboduet
                                            last edited by

                                            Hello, David. Do you have any news? Maybe I can help you testing/debugging this issue?

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