Hairspray...
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Aquanet Purple can. Linked in post above. My absolute "go to". I just buy it locally.
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I am printing on dry PEI sheet and so far everything sticks well (PLA, PETG, flex). Is the glue/spray for exotic filaments or just to get an even better adhesion?
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Aldi's own brand is much like the Bristows, but doesn't stink as bad. I've upped bed temps by 5C to see if that helps a little. Home bargains insetta hairspray has been recommended and I will try that later this week after my wife's food shop!
Thanks all, particually for identifying the PVA as a desired ingredient. Currently searching to see if it is called anything else other than Poly Vinyl Alchol...
Funny the linked hairspray has so many comments about 3D printing! Not available on the uk amazon site.
@zapta I print on glass plates for ease of machine turnaround. Only got one machine setup with PEI direct on an alloy heater and it marked on first print. Another surface I am getting used to is Printbite. PETG seems to need very little encouragement to stick to glass (stopped topping up hairspray in this one) but PLA needs some help.
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@DocTrucker said in Hairspray...:
Currently searching to see if it is called anything else other than Poly Vinyl Alchol..."PVOH; Poly(Ethenol), Ethenol, homopolymer; PVA; Polyviol; Vinol; Alvyl; Alcotex; Covol; Gelvatol; Lemol; Mowiol; Mowiflex, Alcotex, Elvanol, Gelvatol, Lemol, Mowiol, Nelfilcon A, Polyviol und Rhodoviol"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_alcohol
...easy to remember then!
Running 3 P3Steel with Duet 2. Duet 3 on the shelf looking for a suitable machine. One first generation Duet in a Logo/Turtle style robot!
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I use, when I need to print on glass: LACCA FORTE INTESA STYLING
It's available all around Europe and works great. It does have excess %$#^ in it like panthenol, nettle .. but works great. I used many others that work great too, the basic filter I used to use purchasing is the price, the cheaper it is, the less %$#^# it has inside with PVA as PVA is only thing you need. I use hairspray rarely as it's only needed when I print on glass. Normally I print on printbite that does not require any glue but some things I prefer on glass (TPU for e.g. as it sticks too good to printbite and does not let go easily).
The best ever universal glue I used in the past is the super cheap white wood glue. Not the "special" kind (like water resistant, fast working, long working, clear etc etc..) the plain white one, the content "PVA, water". You disolve it with water apply with sprayer or sponge or brush ... it works like a charm on any surface, and object removal is a breeze, if you have too big object that's stuck too hard dump it in a water and it will release, or if you can freeze it even better
... anyhow since I discovered printbite I just keep the can of the hairspray around for rare cases I print on glass
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in adittion to the interesting price correlation mentioned by @arhi ingredients are supposed to be listed in order of quantity so you should only need to look at the first few ingredients where one or two will be the butane or other gas i recon.
at least in my neck of the woods, wood glue is classed as D1 to D4 where you'd want to stay clear of D3 and D4 at least, them be waterproofed and winter rated, with most D4 glues being expanding polyurethane and it makes a mess (even when used on wood:)
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@DocTrucker If you want to try the PVA route - just buy PVA and water it down. You can get 5 litres of the non-nonsense stuff for about a tenner from any builders merchant, or pay a bit more for Unibond but it's all the same stuff. Or you can pay a lot more for wood glue by brands such as Elmers or Evostick but which is still just PVA.
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@bearer yeah D1 is the "pure PVA" I was refering to, the totally plain wood glue, not water resistent, not cold resistent.. add water to it and it's the best surface glue. I used it for years both on glass and on aluminium sheet.
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@zapta said in Hairspray...:
I am printing on dry PEI sheet and so far everything sticks well (PLA, PETG, flex). Is the glue/spray for exotic filaments or just to get an even better adhesion?
Almost always on glass. For one thing, so you can get the print off, later.
Elsewhere, really only after the first attempt failed to adhere: Occasionally on top of blue tape. Very very occasionally on whatever that black stuff is on a Prusa magnetic flex bed.
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@Danal Also, if you use glass with Aqua Net, you will find that you have no need for bed leveling. Once I have my bed leveled, I shut off bed leveling altogether. My first layer is always perfect, because glass is the flattest surface you will find.
Once the glass cools, the printed part just comes off as if it was just placed there. This goes for both PLA and PETG.
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@SteveK42 said in Hairspray...:
@Danal Also, if you use glass with Aqua Net, you will find that you have no need for bed leveling. Once I have my bed leveled, I shut off bed leveling altogether. My first layer is always perfect, because glass is the flattest surface you will find.
Once the glass cools, the printed part just comes off as if it was just placed there. This goes for both PLA and PETG.
Exactly! Love it. The bed on my "big" delta is 605mm dia glass. It is fantastic.
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@Danal said in Hairspray...:
Exactly! Love it. The bed on my "big" delta is 605mm dia glass. It is fantastic.
A bendable glass would help you removing large prints.
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I have actually had my 3mm float glass bent (not permanently) by a plastic part cooling on it! It was a chunky part and took the maximum diameter of the ~210mm square bed!
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@DocTrucker wow, never had that, what I did have quite often is piece of ABS/PETG "chip" a piece of glass and lift it. Maybe 3mm will bend where 4mm would chip (hard to get 3mm here, window glass is 4, and everything thinner you need specialized shops)
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@arhi Window glass will most likely be toughened. That's bad on 2 counts. Firstly it will chip more easily (as you've discovered). Secondly, the toughening process will cause the glass to distort and it will not be as flat as untoughened float glass. If it was hoticultural window glass then the chances are high that it was hot rolled rather than float glass and not very flat to start with. Untoughened float glass, at least 6mm thick is best IMO.
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It was a big chunky part! As you cans see it did curl off the bed a little but I wasn't interested in a perfect part, just something stiff that I could bolt to the end plates to stiffen that section of the frame up.
The glass and part spun a little on my work top before I removed the part and the glass returned to flat after the part was removed. PLA may not shrink much, but it can do so with significant force!
I'd assumed 3mm, but will check. I was going to phone in an order for some more glass soon. Wanted to checkout some of the local suppliers.
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@deckingman said in Hairspray...:
@arhi Window glass will most likely be toughened.
In some countries, yes. Only one I know that's required to use hardened glass is New Zealand (does not mean there are no other ones, that's the only one I know that requires it). Here in .rs we do not use hardened glass for windows, not even for the roof windows. I made the hardening factory near Belgrade years ago and was supposed to make glass bending and hardening line just when this %$#^#&^_)(&^#*( started so the parts and heaters and blowers and ... everything waiting for the police hour and quaranteen to stop.
That's bad on 2 counts. Firstly it will chip more easily (as you've discovered). Secondly, the toughening process will cause the glass to distort and it will not be as flat as untoughened float glass.
This one is not hardened, but chips too. Hardened one must be wavy as they are heated on the rolers, we move them back and forward in the oven to keep them as straight as possible and then move them to a special table where it straightens before hundreds of kw's of blowers cool it down to harden it.
If it was hoticultural window glass then the chances are high that it was hot rolled rather than float glass and not very flat to start with. Untoughened float glass, at least 6mm thick is best IMO.
Rolled glass is very rare here as rolled glass have those inconsistencies that look ugly so 99% of glass here is "poured" (iirc on top of lead or "hydrargyrum" don't remember the English name Hg is the chemical marking, but I'm not 100% sure) .. windows are not normally hardened... there are only few places in the region where you can harden glass and the largest one is owned by a friend and I help them with their production lines so gathered a little bit of knowledge about it
... they do all the laminates, hardening etc.. thing is you cannot cut the hardened glass, you need to cut it and then harden it. Normally here you go to a glass "shop", and they cut and sell you glass on the spot (like this pieces I used for my printers).Anyhow, I did try the hardened glass and it was way more wavy then visible (according to bltouch and precise piezo sensors). I tried borosilicate, it splits like crazy I had real issues with it, I tried (and mostly used) this simple window not hardened glass (poured, not rolled) and it was best. I tried bunch of "fancy" glasses (metalized, gold vapored, self cleaning...) and they are all not good as they have something mixed in the glass that makes it non stick so even with hairspray it do not work properly. What I did not try is something called "SITAL glass" that's supposedly work even better than PEI but is not available here. It was commonly used in USSR.
Anyhow, as I mentioned, since I moved to printbite I never looked back. If you ever seen printbite it is FR4 material. Thing is there is no exact FR4 material, they make it with number of resins using different processes, they get the same dielectric values but one FR4 can be very different from another FR4 sheet. Jason managed to find the one that works extremly good for 3D printing and tracked down manufacturer and is making these specifically for 3D printing now. I tried so many different print bed materials and this is waaaaaay better then all of them IMHO.
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@arhi interesring stuff. St Helens (UK) should ring a bell for people in the glass industry. Pilkingtons had a lot to do with the development of float glass. Trying to do some work with them at the moment but but the work has been struck down by the lockdown too!
There's potential (/hope!) for a large glass research place to be made in St Helens soon too.
With reference to printbite I have three sheets of the stuff and am slowly getting used to it. Their instructions say avoid the borosilicate stuff as it has very different expansion rates (assuming to the printbite material) and can shatter.
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@DocTrucker I worked with a glass specialist when I first built my printer https://www.richardgent.co.uk/about-us.
I gave them the brief that I needed 400mm x 400mm and it had to be 0.1mm in flatness or better over the entire area. It needed too be able to withstand being heated to around 100 deg C. Those was the only criteria I stipulated but I told them I needed 3 sheets. The type and thickness of glass, as well as any processing were entirely up to them. Their recommendation was to use 6mm thick float glass and have it toughened. They stipulated that it could be heated and cooled gradually but should not be subjected to sudden thermal shock. It subsequently transpired that it wasn't flat enough. So they made 3 more, then another 3, and eventually concluded that the toughening process itself led to the distortion. Eventually, they supplied 3 sheets of plain, un-toughened, float glass and this was indeed flat enough (checked with DTi). Fortunately, as I only gave them the flatness brief but left all other decisions to them, I only paid for the final samples.
As an aside, I thought that having them fine sand blasted might help adhesion - it didn't and was a complete disaster compared to plain smooth glass.
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@deckingman Yeah I can follow the sandblasting thing. We're not looking at a mechanical grip situation like a car tyre on a road, it's more like a vacuum. You can see on the underside of the glass as the parts cool and break away. With sand blasting you'd be relying on the polymer flowing enough to match the full profile of the textured surface with no air gaps. Unfortunately polymer doesn't flow well so the result was likely a far lower contact area with the glass.
The hairspray may just fill up local imperfections in the glass and readily melt when hot polymer hits it.
