Mosquito hot end...yes or no?



  • Hi All,

    I posted this over on the reprap forum and got one reply, so I thought I'd ask over here.

    I'm about to build my Rat Rig V-core (v slot roller version), and I'm looking at what extruder/hot end combo to go with.

    I've searched here and elsewhere regarding the Mosquito hot ends vs the E3D V6, and there's not much info especially regarding long term use and reliability.

    I've actually got a new E3DV6 sitting here, but I have never been a fan of the groove mount. That doesn't mean I won't use it, but if I'm buying a new BMG extruder (direct drive configuration) I'm open to getting it with the Mosquito/Magnum, as I like the mounting and heat block arrangement better.

    The machine I'm building is a 400x400x600 build area, with a view to mostly large PLA and PETG prints. If I go with an enclosure, I'd print smaller items in ABS etc, but I've got another machine that can do really high temp stuff. I'll probably go with a standard 0.4mm nozzle and one in 0.8mm as well for 1mm wall thickness/0.5mm layer height prints.

    I've been printing for 8 years, and only say that to explain that I can build and tune my machine correctly. I have no interest in how fast I can print, I'll buy an RC car or plane for speed. I am interested in print quality and strength above all other considerations.

    My question is do I spend the money and get the Mosquito or Magnum?

    I'm happy to spend the money just for the improved mounting (really don't like the groove mount) and nozzle changing alone, as long as it is at least as good or better than the E3DV6 in reliability and print quality.

    Is there anyone out there who's used one in a hard working application? How's it going for you?

    Thank you in advance for any advice.



  • @Corexy You pretty much know my thoughts via our PM chats, so I won't reiterate here. One thing I would say though is because quote " 400x400x600 build area, with a view to mostly large PLA and PETG prints", I'd recommend that your default nozzle should be 0.5mm, rather than 0.4mm. The area of a 0.4mm nozzle is about 0.126 mm^2 whereas the area of a 0.5mm nozzle is about 0.196 mm^2. That's a tad over 50% increase in area and you lose much in terms of resolution.



  • @deckingman said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @Corexy You pretty much know my thoughts via our PM chats, so I won't reiterate here. One thing I would say though is because quote " 400x400x600 build area, with a view to mostly large PLA and PETG prints", I'd recommend that your default nozzle should be 0.5mm, rather than 0.4mm. The area of a 0.4mm nozzle is about 0.126 mm^2 whereas the area of a 0.5mm nozzle is about 0.196 mm^2. That's a tad over 50% increase in area and you lose much in terms of resolution.

    Yes, and I just contacted you via PM just then as well.

    I was just asking here about long term longevity of the standard BMG-M setup, as yours is very custom.

    Interesting point about the nozzle...I've never heard nor thought of that. I was planning to play with a 0.8mm nozzle on this one as well, for 1mm walls and 0.5mm layer heights, but there's no harm in throwing an extra size in the box. 0.5mm might be really good for 0.6mm width with 0.3mm height...speed it up a bit.



  • @Corexy Personally, I don't tend to push the width beyond the nozzle diameter so my default is 0.5mm width, 0.3mm layer height. But 0.5mm is 20 - 25% wider than a 0.4mm nozzle (depending on how you look at it), so all else being equal, that's 20 to 25 % less print moves for a given object. On larger prints, that can save many hours.



  • @deckingman said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @Corexy Personally, I don't tend to push the width beyond the nozzle diameter so my default is 0.5mm width, 0.3mm layer height. But 0.5mm is 20 - 25% wider than a 0.4mm nozzle (depending on how you look at it), so all else being equal, that's 20 to 25 % less print moves for a given object. On larger prints, that can save many hours.

    I'm actually the opposite sorry.

    I always want 10-50% wider than the nozzle orifice, as I feel it gives me a better layer.

    Funny how we all come up with these different things lol.



  • @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    interested in print quality and strength above all other considerations

    Instead of changing the hotend system, I would consider a tool changer system, so you can mix materials in the future. E.g. higher strength by mixing a nice surface with strong material inside. Optionally with Kevlar wire inside, placed by a separate tool.



  • @Corexy As I posted in your other thread: I'm using a Bondtech Prusa BMG with a Mosquitto Magnum on a V-Core Pro.
    What do you want to know?



  • @Lanovar said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @Corexy As I posted in your other thread: I'm using a Bondtech Prusa BMG with a Mosquitto Magnum on a V-Core Pro.
    What do you want to know?

    I'm wondering how the long term longevity and reliability is, and I guess as well whether you felt it was worth the high price.

    Also, did you use the Slice engineering thermistor, or a PT100?



  • @JoergS5 said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    interested in print quality and strength above all other considerations

    Instead of changing the hotend system, I would consider a tool changer system, so you can mix materials in the future. E.g. higher strength by mixing a nice surface with strong material inside. Optionally with Kevlar wire inside, placed by a separate tool.

    Has anyone actually gotten a tool changer to work reliably?

    Plus I'm doing this one on a bit of a tight budget, but sure I'll look into it.



  • E3D is overpriced and dissaster for 3mm filament - the idea of M6/M7 thread without locking screw. I made myself better hot on lathe. Slice will soon release new high flow system. I'm curious about Micron Turbo Flow from Israel. Wasp makes very nice hotend LT/HT cartridge - I could adopt it to 2.85 and V6 radiator. This is how it should be done.



  • @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    Has anyone actually gotten a tool changer to work reliably?

    I have no experience, I am only watching the discord about toolchangers of E3D, Jubilee etc. I find it exciting to see what is being created, but have no recommendation. It was more a suggestion, which direction would be interesting. Tool changer is at the beginning of the "innovation hype cycle", so I am sure there will emerge additional players and solutions.



  • @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    I'm wondering how the long term longevity and reliability is, and I guess as well whether you felt it was worth the high price.

    I havent had any problem with the hotend, yet. The Extruder jammed once, but that was kind of my fault (crappy Geeetech filament)

    But! Mind the weight of the "printhead as a whole". I dont find it easy to get rid of ringing, still after a month Im not satisfied with my profiles.

    If you want to safe "some" money, consider going the the standart mosquitto. Imho you cant push a V-Core to speeds where you would need a magnum, without your prints looking like shit.

    Also, did you use the Slice engineering thermistor, or a PT100?

    Slice, same goes for the heater.



  • @Lanovar said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    I'm wondering how the long term longevity and reliability is, and I guess as well whether you felt it was worth the high price.

    I havent had any problem with the hotend, yet. The Extruder jammed once, but that was kind of my fault (crappy Geeetech filament)

    But! Mind the weight of the "printhead as a whole". I dont find it easy to get rid of ringing, still after a month Im not satisfied with my profiles.

    If you want to safe "some" money, consider going the the standart mosquitto. Imho you cant push a V-Core to speeds where you would need a magnum, without your prints looking like shit.

    Also, did you use the Slice engineering thermistor, or a PT100?

    Slice, same goes for the heater.

    Mate I've never gotten rid of some ringing on any printer without slowing it to an absolute crawl.

    Yeah, I'll probably go with the standard Mosquito over the magnum. If I'd have gone E3D V6 I wouldn't bother with the volcano either.



  • @JoergS5 said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    Has anyone actually gotten a tool changer to work reliably?

    I have no experience, I am only watching the discord about toolchangers of E3D, Jubilee etc. I find it exciting to see what is being created, but have no recommendation. It was more a suggestion, which direction would be interesting. Tool changer is at the beginning of the "innovation hype cycle", so I am sure there will emerge additional players and solutions.

    Yeah I'll pass on the tool changer. I'm going for a simple, durable, reliable large volume printer.



  • @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    Yeah, I'll probably go with the standard Mosquito over the magnum. If I'd have gone E3D V6 I wouldn't bother with the vol

    Iirc the standart mosquitto even has a hight max flow then the V6. So i wouldnt mind.

    On the other hand -> BMG Mosquitto - the magnum is only 20€. Anyways, i like the combination with a prusa IR sensor for loading and unloading.



  • Hi,

    I have the standard M on both my printers and am very happy with the performance.

    Frederick



  • @fcwilt

    Thanks mate,

    I didn't realize there were a few of you using Mosquitos on here, good to know.



  • @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    YES!

    I've searched here and elsewhere regarding the Mosquito hot ends vs the E3D V6, and there's

    I'm running e3dv6 (original) since they exist (both 3 and 1.75)
    I'm running hexagon's also since they exist (both 3 and 1.75)
    I'm running 1730 from Kai
    I purchased M-clone (it is POS 😞 )
    I have seen original Mosquito in action and fell in love
    I'm using original Mosquito (short period only 😞 )

    1730 rocks, it is the best contraption I tried before Mosquito, it is much better than e3dv6 and hexagon. Hexagon is also IMO better than e3dv6. The problem is the environment, e3dv6 has env. that covers almost all your needs, others don't so getting parts for 1730 or hexagon ain't that simple. Mosquito came hard, adopting e3dv6 style nozzles and hitting all the shops out there so almost anyone selling 3d printer stuff is selling mosquito too, they reached BMG and other serious extruder manufacturers to create ready to push combos.. they are creating their own environment and doing it properly so while I do like the 1730 nozzle style better for e.g. Mosquito is overall much better device (of course if you want to print clay or some of those other Kai's crazy filaments 1730 is a must as Mosquito just like e3dv6 don't cut it)

    Mosquito comes as a breath of fresh air IMO both small footprint and ease of use. But I see v2 comes with some changes that confirm heat creep with PLA on v1, especially for slow prints or multi head prints. If you are going to be printing mostly PLA and PETG - any hotend will work. Mosquito will for sure get the job done (you wanna get the magnum if you wanna do fast & large extrusions) but the question is if it's worth the extra $$$ for features you do not need where 30$ hotend with a good original nozzle will do just as good.

    I see you are already advised to go .5 and not .4 for the nozzle. I personally use .6 for 99% of prints, .6 allow you to easily print both .1mm layer and .5mm layer.. not to mention, you can do .1mm perimeters and .5mm infill 😄 .. You can't have super precise fine features in XY but do you need them and how often?



  • @arhi said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    YES!

    I've searched here and elsewhere regarding the Mosquito hot ends vs the E3D V6, and there's

    I'm running e3dv6 (original) since they exist (both 3 and 1.75)
    I'm running hexagon's also since they exist (both 3 and 1.75)
    I'm running 1730 from Kai
    I purchased M-clone (it is POS 😞 )
    I have seen original Mosquito in action and fell in love
    I'm using original Mosquito (short period only 😞 )

    1730 rocks, it is the best contraption I tried before Mosquito, it is much better than e3dv6 and hexagon. Hexagon is also IMO better than e3dv6. The problem is the environment, e3dv6 has env. that covers almost all your needs, others don't so getting parts for 1730 or hexagon ain't that simple. Mosquito came hard, adopting e3dv6 style nozzles and hitting all the shops out there so almost anyone selling 3d printer stuff is selling mosquito too, they reached BMG and other serious extruder manufacturers to create ready to push combos.. they are creating their own environment and doing it properly so while I do like the 1730 nozzle style better for e.g. Mosquito is overall much better device (of course if you want to print clay or some of those other Kai's crazy filaments 1730 is a must as Mosquito just like e3dv6 don't cut it)

    Mosquito comes as a breath of fresh air IMO both small footprint and ease of use. But I see v2 comes with some changes that confirm heat creep with PLA on v1, especially for slow prints or multi head prints. If you are going to be printing mostly PLA and PETG - any hotend will work. Mosquito will for sure get the job done (you wanna get the magnum if you wanna do fast & large extrusions) but the question is if it's worth the extra $$$ for features you do not need where 30$ hotend with a good original nozzle will do just as good.

    I see you are already advised to go .5 and not .4 for the nozzle. I personally use .6 for 99% of prints, .6 allow you to easily print both .1mm layer and .5mm layer.. not to mention, you can do .1mm perimeters and .5mm infill 😄 .. You can't have super precise fine features in XY but do you need them and how often?

    Thanks mate, that's some good info!

    I only remember seeing the 1730 some time back and ignoring it. Didn't realize it was good, as you don't often hear about them.

    I think it's a good idea to stay away from V1 of anything IMHO...there's always issues that will only turn up in real world long term use, which is why I've been asking here.

    While it will be mostly PLA and PETG, I will look to enclose this machine later and want the option there to print exotic materials as well. I don't buy a new machine every week (my current workhorse has run for 4 years now, working hard) and I want this to be my long term/large print setup, so I'll be pretty obsessive about the components I use and correct assembly.

    I must admit I've got a subconscious resistance against moving away from a 0.4mm nozzle...I'll just but an assortment of sizes and play around with them. After all, I'll be having that "easy one handed nozzle change".

    Thanks for your post, I really appreciate it.



  • @Corexy said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    I only remember seeing the 1730 some time back and ignoring it. Didn't realize it was good, as you don't often hear about them.

    😄 It's cause Kai Parthi is not a marketing guy but engineer/inventor. He's the guy who invented wood filament for e.g. but you will almost never find his wood filament out there but other brands that took the process and are using and marketing it etc etc... Kai made 1730 because he had problems with all other hotends on the market with his ceramic filament as his ceramic filament is very brittle and 1730 works ok with brittle filaments (and all other ones too). I don't know if he pushed it to market I'm using proto version. The idea is that he's using a "nozzle" that's all integrated, basically a surgical steel tube brased (soldered) to the e3d type nozzle. and then you put the heater block at the begining ad a big cooler at the rest of it and it works 😄 and it works great .. this is my 3mm nozzle:

    902f62b7-7987-431b-8d2d-caa7c82b3b6b-image.png

    If you look at feltlay, polylay, porolay, woodlay, layfomm ... etc etc .. those are all filament made by him. Unfortunately his filaments (like his hotend) are rather expensive so not very popular, and he's not investing in marketing so few ppl know about them too...
    https://www.matterhackers.com/store/c/Kai Parthy Lay Series
    https://shop.3dfilaprint.com/kai-parthy-filaments-229-c.asp

    I think it's a good idea to stay away from V1 of anything IMHO...there's always issues that will only turn up in real world long term use, which is why I've been asking here.

    Don't get me wrong V1 Mosquito works like a charm. It is AWESOME!!!. @omni was reluctant to mount it as he was using original extruder for a while and was "waiting for everything else of upgrades to finish before he..." .. when he moved to Mosquito he was confused how good it was compared to original (ok, original is wanhao mk something bs so not hard to be better but again). 😄 .. and he printed a lot of PLA and PETG with it (I think he did not try anything else yet) so v1 Mosquito works like a charm for PLA and PETG (and other stuff too, but for other stuff even the shitty clone is perfect with ABS/ASA/HIPS/PA so ..)

    While it will be mostly PLA and PETG, I will look to enclose this machine later and want the option there to print exotic materials as well

    I'd go with Mosquito for sure then!!! BUT I'd immediately ask about water cooling option. They mentioned it in numerous videos I see but I did not see water cooling block for sales. If they have it I'd get it. It will work awesome immediately of course but will be crucial in enclosed printer with exotic filaments IMHO so better immediately go that route 🙂 as that's something most ppl forget when they plan for printing in enclosure... ABS is ok, enough to close the printer and get there some 40C (you need 70 for big intricate parts but 40 will do for number of parts) and air cooling work ok-ish in 40C env, but if you wanna print PA you need serious temps and air cooling will not work

    I must admit I've got a subconscious resistance against moving away from a 0.4mm nozzle...I'll just but an assortment of sizes and play around with them. After all, I'll be having that "easy one handed nozzle change".

    Dunno, when I started over a decade ago my first nozzle was .5mm and since it was super hard to get anything excet PP and HDPE locally I had to print with them and I had a huge roll of recycled PP that was full of shit so I had to redrill that nozzle to .8mm. Since then I'm used to big nozzles and you can really do a lot with them. If you use multiple nozzles .4 is the worse, it's a nozzle you will most probably never use. My take on nozzles is

    • I print drafts .6mm nozzle - it is fast, it is strong, it can easily go down to .1mm layer and up to over .5mm (no need to go over .5)
    • I print large structural parts (parts for printer, parts for cnc, lathe, holders for bike, racks..) I go with .6 or .8mm nozzle - it is super strong, super fast
    • I print figurines, detailed stuff etc .. I go with .3mm nozzle
    • I need top details - .2 mm - but this is super rare, I need to drop from .3 if I need to print a business card for e.g.

    so .6 is for me really the all arounder .. I was normally (till recently) going with dual hexagon and that was 3mm 0.6mm nozzle + 1.75mm 0.3mm nozzle .. that's kinda perfect fit for me, .6mm for infills and stuff, .3mm for outside perimeter, top/bottom..



  • Cheers again mate, appreciated!

    I'm pretty familiar with printing ABS in enclosures. It was the first printing I did actually, with UP Plus's fitted with these little locally made enclosures that actually worked quite well. Best heat I ever got into them (or the enclosed Zortrax M200's I got after that) was just on 50degC in the heat of the Australian summer.

    These were just passively heated by the bed and hot end, with the fan's mixing it up, but it worked quite well for medium size ABS prints. Even PLA in freezing cold overnight prints in winter certainly benefited from have the enclosure at 24-26degC.

    For this machine I'll most likely start or even stick with the same passively heated approach, but I hope to control an exhaust fan via the Duet board and a PT100/1000 mounted in the cabinet somewhere. I've designed a filter/fan housing that uses cheap generic charcoal face mask cartridges, and will allow me to run a light corrugated hose to an exhaust point outside my workshop.

    So for now my plan/budget is for a "warm, naturally aspirated" enclosure, but controlled through my board so I can possibly include cabinet temps in my print profiles. I will most certainly allow for upgrading to water cooling at a later date however. Of course if they actually release a water cooled version before I've bought my extruder/hot end......

    It's a lot of fun procrastinating during the lead up to building in this case. I have no choice at the moment, as if I don't clean up the garage, finish a current home reno and a couple of other projects, the minister for finance (and war) will include a curtailing of the budget allocation in the minutes of the next financial meeting. It's all political sometimes.



  • @arhi According to my contact at Slice Engineering, the small change to the V2 mosquito heat break has nothing to do with heat creep. It is merely to add extra support to the top of the very thin wall tube, because they had a small number of users who managed to damage the ends of those tubes.

    Edit. That's kind of born out by the fact that the V2 simply has a longer copper part above the finned copper heat sink. If heat creep was an issue, then they would have made the heat sink fins larger in diameter or added more of them.



  • @deckingman said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    @arhi According to my contact at Slice Engineering, the small change to the V2 mosquito heat break has nothing to do with heat creep. It is merely to add extra support to the top of the very thin wall tube, because they had a small number of users who managed to damage the ends of those tubes.

    Well whatever they do they will have users break it, we all know that 😞 ... didn't you manage to break some of those tubes too 😄 .. iirc you broke the distancers not the feed tube right?

    That's kind of born out by the fact that the V2 simply has a longer copper part above the finned copper heat sink. If heat creep was an issue, then they would have made the heat sink fins larger in diameter or added more of them.

    they didn't (weirdly) explain why they did it so I assumed what I assumed and looking at the way it is now it is collecting more heat from that thin tube. As I mentioned V1 works like a charm but this upgrade is a welcome one 🙂 ..

    With regards to those fins, few things are unclear to me there. From what I learn on mechanics unversity (was too long ago and I switched to electronics so ..) copper has better heat conducting properties than aluminium so but aluminium has better heat transfer properties so if I understand properly aluminium heat sink would pull more heat from the steel tube and release more heat to the air, the only thing where copper is better is having the whole heatsink at same temp... and making everything heavier .. it would be awesome if they shown some tests they made with heatsink made out of alu vs copper and how temp inside the steel tube changes depending on that material..



  • @arhi I had 6 Mosquito heat breaks screwed into a single, big hot block but without the side plates that normally surround the heat breaks, and without the top plate that normally supports the top of the tubes. That's why the tubes bent when I stupidly dropped the partial assembly.

    As for the heat sinks on the tubes, if the filament is moving forward as in a normal print, one can print PLA all day long without any heat sink at all. The reason for the heat sink is to dissipate any heat that conducts up through the filament itself when printing for example voroni vases with lots of retractions and very short moves.

    In an ideal world, the heat break itself should be a low conductor, but the tube above the heat break should be a good conductor so as to dissipate heat to the surrounding air. What we need is a composite tube with Copper butt welded onto Titanium or some such. 🙂

    As an aside, it is the lower most fins of a heat break that dissipate most of the heat. That's why the Diamond 5 colour is so much worse than the 3 colour for heat creep. Because in order to get 5 heat breaks in the same diameter circle, the lowermost fins are smaller.

    It would be simplicity itself for Slice Engineering to make those fins bigger so my take on it is that they don't consider it to be necessary. They do have some very expensive thermal imaging equipment, so I guess they know what works.



  • @deckingman said in Mosquito hot end...yes or no?:

    dropped the partial assembly.

    😞

    As for the heat sinks on the tubes, if the filament is moving forward as in a normal print, one can print PLA all day long without any heat sink at all.

    Not something I can confirm. Something I read they wrote in a few places, not something I can confirm really. No retractions - no pauses, printing at some decent speed, the small fan blowing trough the heatsink of a mosquito heated the petg 2 cm away from the mosquito so much it lost structural stability and warped. The aluminium frame that's not used as heatsink at all hot so hot (even with fan !!) that it melted the screws out of PETG and released itself. (solved by tapping a 2mm steel plate with 2 M2.5 holes and crewing mosquito into steel plate and steel plate into petg and now it works ok) ... so the hotend does print, and it prints awesome, but I could not confirm all the thermal claims they made nor reproduce all the thermal imagery they shown

    They do have some very expensive thermal imaging equipment, so I guess they know what works.

    they, for sure, do a lot of testing and make a lot of imagery but they on the other hand do not share what they do and how they came to what conclusions (for obvious reasons 😞 ) so we have to take their word that they made the best decisions. That's generally not a problem when everything works 1/1 out of the boks but we had to redo a carriage on omni's machine 2 times to deal with heat issues... it was printing non stop, that's not the problem, but not without a fan


Log in to reply