Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?
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@DanS79 That's an interesting point of view. I'll bear that in mind but I suspect anyone who bought the latest generation of a product such as a 'phone would be somewhat miffed if many of the bundled apps (which worked on the previous version and are still bundled with the new version), didn't work.
It might of course be different if the vendors or software developers made it clear that would be the case, but no such case was made when I upgraded from gen 2 Duet to gen 3. On the contrary, much was made of the higher spec processor leading to the expectation that this would give additional or faster capabilities. Sadly the opposite is true. I foolishly thought that being a long time supporter and one who has spent many hundreds of hours helping out the Duet guys with firmware testing and exhibition support, that they would be honest and truthful with me. My fault entirely for being so naive.
This thread has also highlighted the fact that some users have different ideas about what is important and what is not. I foolishly assumed that all users would consider basic things like being able to print something would be more important than new features that enabled something like fancy LCD backlights. Clearly I was wrong and the majority view of people posting in this thread is that not being able to home the printer (if an unsupported combination of board/switch/motor are selected) or tune a heater are insignificant inconveniences compared to being able to use DotStar LEDs to backlight an LCD screen. Silly of me to think that users would actually want to be able to do something useful with their machines.
Yes for sure, my usage case is somewhat different. But I only have a single hot end heater and thermistor - just like the majority of users. Yet I cannot PID tune that heater. Again - entirely my fault for foolishly wanting to connect it to an expansion board.
I also could not run extruders at anything like the micro-stepping that I could on gen 2, nor could I run the Z axis at the same speed as before. Neither could anyone else, even if they only had a single extruder. Of course, this is all my fault because I foolishly assumed that the step pulse frequency would be as good as the previous generation product.
Normally this sort of information would be in the documentation but isn't. All my fault of course for having balls that are made of flesh and not crystal, otherwise I could have predicted these shortcomings. I'll go and get myself castrated and pay a visit to mystic Meg to prevent myself making the same mistakes in the future.
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@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
I'll bear that in mind but I suspect anyone who bought the latest generation of a product such as a 'phone would be somewhat miffed if many of the bundled apps (which worked on the previous version and are still bundled with the new version), didn't work.
The underlying hardware architecture for phones hasn't changed in a long time though. I think almost every phone on the market is based on ARM. If the next generation was x86 based, people would go mad because all kinds of things would break.
If people don't want to deal with issue, then they shouldn't be an early adopter. Doesn't matter if it's phones, sbcs, tvs, cars etc.
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@DanS79 said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
@pixelpieper This isn't a matter of which new features should take priority. This is a case of restoring basic functionality that already exists in version 2 firmware to version 3 firmware before adding new features.
I'm a developer by trade i think you need to consider a few things!
- Just because a piece of software functionality worked on one piece of hardware doesn't mean it will work on another with different architecture.
- I'd be willing to bet their are substantially more v2 boards in the wild than v3, so the wants and needs of v2 users will most likely take precedence.
- Some of the new features might make it easier to fix outstanding issues. On several occasions i have done this, mainly because it involved rewriting a sub system from scratch.
- From what I can tell, your use case is very much and edge case, so you should expect issues imo.
Being a user I don't give two fornications about any of the issues encountered by those developing hardware/software.
As a user I expect the "evolution" equipment (that I have paid for) to "fit for purpose" its not as if the end user is forcing the supplier into supply, but the supplier does use the "evolution" features to entice existing (and new) users into making a purchase.
In this case it is a brutal fact that full functionality (at least on par with previous equipment) has turned out to be of secondary importance.
And again I don't give two fornications if what worked on older equipment doesn't now work on the newer equipment, newsflash (meanwhile back in the real world) is that IT SHOULD, or it shouldn't have been released.
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@CaLviNx said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
As a user I expect the "evolution" equipment (that I have paid for) to "fit for purpose" its not as if the end user is forcing the supplier into supply, but the supplier does use the "evolution" features to entice existing (and new) users into making a purchase.
No one is forcing you to buy it, and it's on you if you fall for a sales pitch, or can't control your consumerism!
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@DanS79 said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
I'll bear that in mind but I suspect anyone who bought the latest generation of a product such as a 'phone would be somewhat miffed if many of the bundled apps (which worked on the previous version and are still bundled with the new version), didn't work.
The underlying hardware architecture for phones hasn't changed in a long time though. I think almost every phone on the market is based on ARM. If the next generation was x86 based, people would go mad because all kinds of things would break.
If people don't want to deal with issue, then they shouldn't be an early adopter. Doesn't matter if it's phones, sbcs, tvs, cars etc..
Horse skat
The myopic outlook to the point blindness is unreal.
Pre-production units could be classed as being an early adopter, production units should be functional.
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@DanS79 said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
....................If people don't want to deal with issue, then they shouldn't be an early adopter.
I've learned that lesson the hard way. At the time, the reason for being an early adopter was as much to help out the Duet guys (by having my machine on their stand at the TCT show to demonstrate their products) as it was for my own benefit. My "reward" is to be thrown under the bus by having the outstanding firmware issues repeatedly deferred for more than 15 months, in favour of other users who have requested additional "features".
But as you profess to being (quote) "a developer by trade" your statement is a classic excuse that I see is becoming more and more prevalent among your profession. Personally I find it insulting to blame purchasers of products for what is essentially inexcusably bad conduct on the part of the person who has not done his/her job properly.
If you had a trade person in to undertake some work which turned out to be sub-standard, would you find it an acceptable excuse if that trade person turned around and told you that he/she hadn't been in business or hadn't been doing the job for long, therefore it's your fault for being an early adopter?
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@DanS79 said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
@CaLviNx said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
As a user I expect the "evolution" equipment (that I have paid for) to "fit for purpose" its not as if the end user is forcing the supplier into supply, but the supplier does use the "evolution" features to entice existing (and new) users into making a purchase.
No one is forcing you to buy it, and it's on you if you fall for a sales pitch, or can't control your consumerism!
That point is valid I will admit, in the defence of many loyal customers it was "felt" that Duet was among one of the more "trustworthy" companies.
But they have proved that, that is not the case, and what makes it even worse is that they don't seem to care that those very same loyal customers have worked out that they have been openly screwed over.
They have majorly lost the support and trust of those loyal customers, who will never again support them to the same level ever.
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@DanS79 said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
No one is forcing you to buy it, and it's on you if you fall for a sales pitch, or can't control your consumerism!
The excuses for being bad at developing products just get more and more outrageous! Blame the customer for buying it - are you serious?
Gerald Ratner once said at an after dinner speech, that his jewellery business products were crap. Within days he was bankrupt and the business folded. People don't like to be told that it's their fault that they bought crap.
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@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
But as you profess to being (quote) "a developer by trade" your statement is a classic excuse that I see is becoming more and more prevalent among your profession. Personally I find it insulting to blame purchasers of products for what is essentially inexcusably bad conduct on the part of the person who has not done his/her job properly.
You can be insulted all you want but your comments imo show a lack of understanding with regards to the subject at hand. No developer, team of developers, company, or even massive tech industry giant can ensure no user ever has issues, specially when you are talking about non trivial applications.
The number of potential issues grows almost exponentially with the complexity of the software. Thus, project/product managers usually focus on bugs/features/issues that are of a concern to the majority of the user/revenue base.
For example what would you fix first? A bug related to one users who is running a 15 year networking card, or a bug (that's not your fault) that affects several thousand people because Microsoft decided to make a change and then push it out in an automatic update without telling down stream companies/developers/manufactures?
Now scale that up to hundreds or thousands of bugs and feature requests.
If you had a trade person in to undertake some work which turned out to be sub-standard, would you find it an acceptable excuse if that trade person turned around and told you that he/she hadn't been in business or hadn't been doing the job for long, therefore it's your fault for being an early adopter?
I personally wouldn't find myself in that situation as i can do most trade stuff myself. Plumbing, electrical, carpentry, care repair etc. Even if i didn't have the skills I do, i'd still check a contractor's credentials.
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@DanS79 said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
But as you profess to being (quote) "a developer by trade" your statement is a classic excuse that I see is becoming more and more prevalent among your profession. Personally I find it insulting to blame purchasers of products for what is essentially inexcusably bad conduct on the part of the person who has not done his/her job properly.
You can be insulted all you want but your comments imo show a lack of understanding with regards to the subject at hand. No developer, team of developers, company, or even massive tech industry giant can ensure no user ever has issues, specially when you are talking about non trivial applications.
The number of potential issues grows almost exponentially with the complexity of the software. Thus, project/product managers usually focus on bugs/features/issues that are of a concern to the majority of the user/revenue base.
For example what would you fix first? A bug related to one users who is running a 15 year networking card, or a bug (that's not your fault) that affects several thousand people because Microsoft decided to make a change and then push it out in an automatic update without telling down stream companies/developers/manufactures?
Now scale that up to hundreds or thousands of bugs and feature requests.
If you had a trade person in to undertake some work which turned out to be sub-standard, would you find it an acceptable excuse if that trade person turned around and told you that he/she hadn't been in business or hadn't been doing the job for long, therefore it's your fault for being an early adopter?
I personally wouldn't find myself in that situation as i can do most trade stuff myself. Plumbing, electrical, carpentry, care repair etc. Even if i didn't have the skills I do, i'd still check a contractor's credentials.
I must thank you for this post, it has reminded me why it is folly to try hold a cognitive discussion with a fool who thinks he is clever, as it is akin to playing chess with a pigeon, because no matter how good you are at chess, said pigeon is still going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
And on that note any further input from myself is pointless.
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I agree and think that it's fair to say that everything that can be said, has been said any further posts are pointless. Mods may as well lock this thread if they seem fit.
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@CaLviNx said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
I must thank you for this post, it has reminded me why it is folly to try hold a cognitive discussion with a fool who thinks he is clever, as it is akin to playing chess with a pigeon, because no matter how good you are at chess, said pigeon is still going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
And on that note any further input from myself is pointless.
I wouldn't call you a pigeon, but if that's how you see yourself then so be it!
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@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
Mods may as well lock this thread if they seem fit.
Civil discourse is apparently dead, but I'm loathe to lock anything. People are free to discuss their grievances as vehemently as they like, just please remain civil and refrain from personal attacks.
If the children are finished arguing, perhaps we can return this topic to its original purpose.
We are aware of the current firmware limitations and are working to address them. It's an unfortunately situation and we understand the frustration. We apologize for the disappointment. All we can do is ask that you bare with us while work proceeds. You don't have to be happy about it, but at least accept that we're working on it.
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............... We are aware of the current firmware limitations and are working to address them.
I've heard that too many times over the last 15 months to be able to bring myself to believe it. Or rather, "working to address them" can have many meanings - up until now, it seems to be the case that fixing these outstanding limitations has been very low priority.
It's an unfortunately situation and we understand the frustration.
Ignoring the typo ("unfortunately situation" ?) but with respect, I don't think you have any idea how frustrating (and costly) it has been to come up with all the workarounds that I've had to do.
We apologize for the disappointment. All we can do is ask that you bare with us while work proceeds.
Apology accepted (although as stated above, 15 months and counting is a long time "bare with you" - I've known many marriages that have completely broken down in such a time scale).
You don't have to be happy about it, but at least accept that we're working on it.
On the basis that it's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil, I will continue to squeak out, at every opportunity, about these issues until they are resolved.
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@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
I don't think you have any idea how frustrating (and costly) it has been to come up with all the workarounds that I've had to do.
I read all your posts, so I'm at least as aware as you've communicated.
@deckingman said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
I will continue to squeak out, at every opportunity, about these issues until they are resolved.
I'd expect no less. I'm not asking you to let us off the hook, I'm just telling you we hear your complaints, accept them as valid, and want you to know we are trying to resolve them.
And thanks for ignoring my typo.
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@Phaedrux Well at least you haven't called me an old fart this time around
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I haven't typed it anyway.
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@Phaedrux said in Whats does the roadmap look like for variables?:
I haven't typed it anyway.
........I'll wager you were thinking far worse than "old fart"
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I admit that it's taking longer than I expected to resolve the limitations. Some of them relate to wiring schemes that are impossible to do with Duet 2, so they don't fall into the category of things you can do with Duet 2 that you can't do with Duet 3.
Here is a partial list of limitations that we have resolved since the launch of Duet 3 about a year ago:
Expansion boards:
- M143 additional heater temperature monitors are not supported
- Motor standstill current fraction is fixed at 70% and cannot be configured
- Emergency Stop only turns off heaters and motors on the main board, not on expansion boards
- Endstop switches attached to expansion boards are only partly implemented
- Z probes connected to expansion boards are not yet supported.
- If an axis has multiple motors, and there is a separate endstop switch for each motor, all the switches and motors must be connected to the same board.
- M950 cannot be used to configure a GPIO or servo port on an expansion board
- Tacho readings from fans on expansion boards are not available
- M581 triggers cannot be attached to ports on an expansion board
- Software reset data is not available for expansion boards (fixed in 3.2b1)
- Filament monitors for extruders driven by expansion boards and tool boards are not yet supported (fixed in 3.2b3)
- Achievable step rates are lower than expected (fixed in 3.2b1)
Main board:
- Connector IO_0 is reserved for PanelDue and cannot be used for other purposes
- DHT sensors are not supported
So I hope you can see that we are working through the limitations.
The current list of limitations is at https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Duet_3_firmware_configuration_limitations. Next on my list to fix are the limitations relating to endstop switches connected to the main board, and heater tuning.
Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com -
@dc42 From my perspective, there was a flurry of activity around the time of the launch, leading up to the TCT show, and for a few weeks after. But then all progress more or less dried up for the next 12 months which is why my patience ran out.
Just out of curiosity, why is it taking soooo long to sort out PID tuning of heaters connected to expansion boards? It's a fairly basic thing to want to do. It's not my field of expertise but I wouldn't have thought that PID tuning is particularly processor intensive and most of the time is simply monitoring a single temperature channel or waiting for the temperature to settle/stabilise. Also the code exists for the main board so why is it so difficult to transfer to expansion boards?
