Bed levelling (and also print surface discussion).
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I'm wondering what PrintBite actually is. I'd sort of assumed that it was PEI stuck to something. It has a very fine texture to it - like very finely etched parallel lines. so maybe it isn't. Whatever it is, my measurements tell me that there is 13 deg C temperature difference between the top surface and the bed, whereas with plain glass the temperature difference is around 2 deg C so from that I deduced that the PrintBite was insulating by 11 deg C. So in theory, if I run the bed at 70 deg C instead of 50, it should work (for PLA). I wonder if I just got unlucky and it's a bad batch? I got mine on 8th November 2016 and it was the first a new batch. Did anyone buy any at around that time or after, and if so, does it work?
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I got a tiny piece for my micro delta just 100mm diameter, probably around early December which is the best piece I've had so far, abs stays bonded down to 56 deg C. My large sheet on the kossel Xl releases abs at about 85 deg C.
As for what it's made of it has a sort of fibreglass like texture and weave. But I don't know what it's made from.
You do need to be achieving 60 on top of the printbite for pla and 110 for abs which I find is 70 or 120 set temp.
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The stuff I have is an early one that came without any backing adhesive or grid marking's on it?
Mine is attached directly to my Ecocast plate and just works.
@simspeed do you have a link to that Chinese PEI Supplier please?
Doug
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PrintBite seems to be a type of G-10/FR-4 sheet, allegedly with a treatment done to it. I think it is simply an off-the-shelf G-10 sheet with branding applied and price marked up.
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Well I don't know I'm sure. I dug out my piece of glass with PrintBite on it. Gave it a clean with soapy water as recommended. Heated the bed to 85 deg C, checked the temperature on the surface and it was at 71 as measured with a thermocouple stuck on with 3 layers of Kapton tape. Tried printing something with PLA - nothing - zilch - nada - might as well have been trying to print ice. All I've got is another birds nest. SO I wacked the hot end up from 195 to 225 (no print cooling fan). Cleaned the PrintBite again - this time with Acetone. Dropped Z homing by another 0.1mm. Tried again. The only difference was that this time it was a wider, flatter string of filament that didn't stick. For whatever reason, this stuff just isn't going to work for me.
However, one useful thing has come out of this exercise. I've found how to remove it from the glass is you need to. You just need to pry up a corner with a strong flat blade being careful not to bend it too far (I used a gasket scraper). Once you have a little gap, pour Acetone into it - this dissolves the adhesive. Continue widening the gap and pouring in more Acetone and voila! I now have another piece of glass that I can use for testing something else (or at least I will have when I get the rest of the adhesive off).
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@simspeed do you have a link to that Chinese PEI Supplier please?Doug
Hi Doug….here is the link. Address your comments to Cun Zhang and mention me (Terry Peterson) if you don't mind. They quoted me $106 for a 560mm X 773 x 3mm sheet of PEI 1000. I am revising the size to 803mm long for repricing so I'm sure it will be a little more. I plan to place my order when the repricing hits my inbox. Best of luck...
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Nice price on a piece that size. I've never tried a piece larger than a 280 mm octagon (measured from edge to edge) with just clamping, so if the piece comes with a natural bow you may have to fasten/adhere it in some fashion.
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@ Simspeed
Thanks for the Link now what is interesting is that they start at 1mm thick and go up to 100mm but they also do it in Black now don't know if that will impact on how it performs as a print surface or not?
also std size of 500x500 is interesting and even 1000x1000.I will drop an enquiry in a little later and see what comes back?
Doug
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The black one would probably be ideal to use with the IR sensor.
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That's what I was thinking David.
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Doug,
Did your PrintBite without adhesive have a top surface and bottom surface? i.e. did it matter which side you applied the adhesive? Just wondering if mine was supplied with the adhesive applied to the wrong surface.
Ian
P.S. If anyone want a 400mm x 400mm sheet of PrintBite it's going free for collection. You'd need to get the sticky goo off the back but otherwise it's intact. PM me if interested but I'm not willing to post it - it'd have to be collected from just south of Northampton UK.
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Doug,
Did your PrintBite without adhesive have a top surface and bottom surface? i.e. did it matter which side you applied the adhesive? Just wondering if mine was supplied with the adhesive applied to the wrong surface.
Ian
P.S. If anyone want a 400mm x 400mm sheet of PrintBite it's going free for collection. You'd need to get the sticky goo off the back but otherwise it's intact. PM me if interested but I'm not willing to post it - it'd have to be collected from just south of Northampton UK.
No it was the same both sides?
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Just to add my vote for using thicker sheet PEI. I use 2mm PEI on one printer and 3mm on another. Both perform beautifully for all the reasons bot posts above. I hate that thin 3M tape and always had issues with it. Now I don’t use it at all, and instead clip the thick PEI sheet directly on top of a glass plate.
The PEI sheet tends to have a natural bow in one direction, probably related to the manufacturing process. Making sure the bow is facing downwards on the bed so that contact is first made in the center means that clipping the edges flattens it out very nicely.
Yes, it cost more to begin with but I'm getting much better life and consistency out of it than I did with the thin PEI film. I've re-sanded the surface a couple of times but still have a long way to go!
I use a DC42 IR sensor on one machine, and that one I've sprayed the PEI black on the back. No problems.
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Glad to hear the experience is consistent. Can I ask the size of bed you're using? I'm planning on going to a 300 mm square instead of 280 mm octagon, and I'm wondering it the extreme corners will be a bit wavy. Any experience?
My wife has a lulzbot mini with the thin PEI sheets, and they get destroyed pretty easily compared to the thick sheets I run. I can crash my head into the bed, full force, and drag it around for a bit with not much damage done – marks can be sanded away. (Not that I ever crash the head into the bed... ahem... :P)
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@bot:
…............. Can I ask the size of bed you're using? I'm planning on going to a 300 mm square instead of 280 mm octagon, and I'm wondering it the extreme corners will be a bit wavy. Any experience? ...........................
I'd be interested to know that too as my bed is 400mm x 400mm. So I'm a bit worried about this "bowing" that people mention.
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Here is a post of when I got my first sheet. http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=8414#p70579
You can see the bow, and how the clips can take it off (corners aren't clipped down, though).
Worst case scenario, you (we) have to resort to adhering the sheet to the flat surface. Then, the thicker surface isn't quite as useful, but still superior, IMO, for the durability.
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@bot:
Can I ask the size of bed you're using? I'm planning on going to a 300 mm square instead of 280 mm octagon, and I'm wondering it the extreme corners will be a bit wavy. Any experience?
One machine is a Rostock Mk2 delta with a 300mm diameter circular bed, the other is a 300 x 200 mm D-Bot. I cut both out of 12" squares of PEI from McMaster-Carr. One is nominally 3/32" and the other 1/8". (Yes, this is the USA, PEI is sold in imperial sizes. Don't ask…)
Yes, there are some bumps near the clamps, but the new bed leveling code makes things almost perfect!
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PrintBite requires much higher temperatures than other surfaces I've tried, I also had issues with reliability of IR bed levelling and have since stopped using it in favour of PEI. Though I received my LokBuild last night and am keen to give that a try asap.
Well I don't know I'm sure. I dug out my piece of glass with PrintBite on it. Gave it a clean with soapy water as recommended. Heated the bed to 85 deg C, checked the temperature on the surface and it was at 71 as measured with a thermocouple stuck on with 3 layers of Kapton tape. Tried printing something with PLA - nothing - zilch - nada - might as well have been trying to print ice. All I've got is another birds nest. SO I wacked the hot end up from 195 to 225 (no print cooling fan). Cleaned the PrintBite again - this time with Acetone. Dropped Z homing by another 0.1mm. Tried again. The only difference was that this time it was a wider, flatter string of filament that didn't stick. For whatever reason, this stuff just isn't going to work for me.
However, one useful thing has come out of this exercise. I've found how to remove it from the glass is you need to. You just need to pry up a corner with a strong flat blade being careful not to bend it too far (I used a gasket scraper). Once you have a little gap, pour Acetone into it - this dissolves the adhesive. Continue widening the gap and pouring in more Acetone and voila! I now have another piece of glass that I can use for testing something else (or at least I will have when I get the rest of the adhesive off).
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Deckingman, you are not alone. I have never gotten the PrintBite to work properly. Have tried it in as many ways as possible, and it worked every now and then. it is extremely critical to the first layer thickness. All the tests and things I have tried confirm to me personally that is it simple FR4.
I am now using Filaprint. That is a little more forgiving in the first layer dimension, but it is a bit more tricky to maintain. No acetone allowed, at all. Water or 100% pure alcohol. I don't know about the PEI coating, never really tested it for that. I doubt it though.
Other surfaces I have tried are Geckotek, was ok for PLA, but hey, what isn't?
Then I have received a piece of BuildTak for when I want to print PC-Max and am now trying out Flatforce. This is interesting stuff in the sense that it is a plate of carbon fiber, approx 3 mm thick. It grips mechanically. And it grips very very well. A bit too good. One of the reasons is grips is because it has little holes in it, so the filament oozes into the holes and that holds it.
Translation: You will always have to post-process the bottom layer. It simply is not flat.Add to that plain Glass and it seems I have been testing 5 different print surfaces and none are perfect so far. What I understand is that PEI comes closest, but if you are printing nylon or such, you will still need to work with glue or such again. The perfect print bed surface remains a holy grail.
Wonder how Brian is getting on with the Lokbuild. It seems to be pretty universal. I feel a 6th buildplate test coming up. Sigh!
