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    Thermal transfer coefficient of hardened steel nozzles

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    • T3P3Tonyundefined
      T3P3Tony administrators
      last edited by

      Jeff I have not printed with their hardned nozzes yet but what you are saying makes sense. Maybe there is some more infor on the e3d-online forum?

      www.duet3d.com

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      • InSanityundefined
        InSanity
        last edited by

        @T3P3Tony:

        Jeff I have not printed with their hardned nozzes yet but what you are saying makes sense. Maybe there is some more infor on the e3d-online forum?

        I'll check their forum, I actually did a bit of Google searching before posting here. I couldn't find anything conclusive. All I found was that the hardened nozzles shouldn't cause an issue and that others used them as daily drivers, nobody seamed to factor in print speeds, layer heights, etc. I know 80mm/s isn't all that fast but at 0.2 mm layer heights it's still sucking a bit of heat out of the nozzle.

        Thanks,

        Jeff

        Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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        • DjDemonDundefined
          DjDemonD
          last edited by

          I know that the steel nozzles have much less capability to transfer heat than brass. I'm waiting on a tungsten nozzle from a kickstarter before trying some cf filaments. It should be optimum, excellent thermal transfer and very hard. https://dddmaterial.com/home/blog/tungsten-premium-nozzles-launched-kickstarter/

          I don't think of 80mm/s as fast but I'd be willing to bet average printing speed across the piece is probably 50mm/s. I've a volcano hotend and with a 30w heater cartridge I can't melt filament fast enough with a 1.0mm nozzle to get up beyond 50mm/s.

          Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
          www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
          PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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          • T3P3Tonyundefined
            T3P3Tony administrators
            last edited by

            Jeff an obvious question - have you tried turning the heat up significantly? Simplistically I presume it is the temperature of the filament leaving the nozzle that matters so as long as the hotter filament inside the top of the nozzle is not so hot it degrades it should still work. I agree 80mm/s max it not so fast as to present a problem.

            www.duet3d.com

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            • InSanityundefined
              InSanity
              last edited by

              @DjDemonD:

              I don't think of 80mm/s as fast but I'd be willing to bet average printing speed across the piece is probably 50mm/s. I've a volcano hotend and with a 30w heater cartridge I can't melt filament fast enough with a 1.0mm nozzle to get up beyond 50mm/s.

              Yah, that's why I'm a bit confused. I'm running an E3D 30w heater with just the normal updated E3D V6 block with a PT100 thermistor cartridge. I can do 160 mm/s with 4000 acl with the same heat block and heater If I use brass no problems. All indications are the hardened nozzle can't even do 80 mm/s 2500 acl 0.4mm width and 0.2 mm heights. The temperature is nice and flat, no fans running..etc. If I have to slow down I'm going to be a bit bummed out.

              Thanks,

              Jeff

              Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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              • DjDemonDundefined
                DjDemonD
                last edited by

                It does sound as though it's not a lack of heat but a lack of thermal transfer to the filament. Next time your nozzle is out how about some copper grease between it and the heater block, I've never found it to be a hindrance (and the nozzle comes out easier later on).

                Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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                • GeckoBox3Dundefined
                  GeckoBox3D
                  last edited by

                  I've recently upgraded my nozzle to a hardened steel one from e3d and noticed that my prints need at least 10-15c more heat to print well. Take this with a major pinch of salt though, because I also fiddled around with my thermistor cartridge at the same time and I have a feeling I overtightened the grubb screw and bent it. I'm replacing it soon though so we'll soon see which is at fault!

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                  • InSanityundefined
                    InSanity
                    last edited by

                    @GeckoBox3D:

                    I've recently upgraded my nozzle to a hardened steel one from e3d and noticed that my prints need at least 10-15c more heat to print well. Take this with a major pinch of salt though, because I also fiddled around with my thermistor cartridge at the same time and I have a feeling I overtightened the grubb screw and bent it. I'm replacing it soon though so we'll soon see which is at fault!

                    Unless it went into a fault state chances are you didn't throw it out of calibration so to speak. In my case I was really careful not to crush the cartridge and both my hot ends read the same at room temp. 10-15c, ouch that is a bit much.

                    Thanks,

                    Jeff

                    Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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                    • ShadowXundefined
                      ShadowX
                      last edited by

                      If they have a harden nozzle for an E3D volcano hot end block, you should go that route. Adding a thermal grease around the threads help reduce any thermal resistance.

                      However, brass nozzles are around 110 W/(mK) thermal conductivity and stainless steel is around 16 W/(mK), so its a huge difference. Another option is to use a Tungsten nozzle since it has around 173 W/(mK) thermal conductivity. Not cheap, but not a lot of options if you need it hardened.

                      https://dddmaterial.com/home/shop/product/tungsten-premium-nozzle-1-75mm-m6-0-4mm/

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                      • InSanityundefined
                        InSanity
                        last edited by

                        How's the thermal compound hold up to 315C ?, I like my PC.

                        Jeff

                        Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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                        • ShadowXundefined
                          ShadowX
                          last edited by

                          It depends on the the grease. Some high temp thermal grease is spec to 1000C.

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                          • InSanityundefined
                            InSanity
                            last edited by

                            Ok, I have some various thermal compounds around. I'm going to hit them with 500C hot air from the rework station and see what survives 🙂 If none of them do I'll do some shopping. I think that could really help. I know it sure does on the heatsink side.

                            Jeff

                            Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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                            • ShadowXundefined
                              ShadowX
                              last edited by

                              In your situation, the grease may help only a little. Your problem is the low thermal conductivity of the stainless steel nozzle. I suggest you print slower to allow time for the heat to get into the nozzle if you have issues. Upgrading to Volcano block increases the surface area contact based on the orientation of the heater and the length of the nozzle. That may solve your problem, but you would need the Volcano block and a new nozzle. The tungsten nozzle is a quick solution, but the cost is high and they may not have the part in stock yet.

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                              • InSanityundefined
                                InSanity
                                last edited by

                                Fine, I'll bow to the laws of thermal dynamics and slow it down…if I print a raft it becomes obvious really fast as it starts to look like fiberglass mesh. Guess I'll just play with the speeds.

                                Jeff

                                Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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                                • deckingmanundefined
                                  deckingman
                                  last edited by

                                  Are you using a part cooling fan by any chance? If so, try turning it off or down at least for the first few layers just to see if it helps.

                                  Ian
                                  https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                                  https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

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                                  • InSanityundefined
                                    InSanity
                                    last edited by

                                    @deckingman:

                                    Are you using a part cooling fan by any chance? If so, try turning it off or down at least for the first few layers just to see if it helps.

                                    I've tried with it off, with it on only where needed, etc. Doesn't seam to matter much. It's as if the nozzle looses the battle of thermal transfer after so much filament has passed by. It does ok for small parts or layers without much filament, as soon as it hits a somewhat dense fill or worse a solid layer the game is over. The temperature from the PT100 in the meantime stays pretty rock solid. I'm still a die-hard ABS fan, I would warm up to PETG more if it wasn't so shinny. I like PC, but it's really a PITA.

                                    Jeff

                                    Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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                                    • ShadowXundefined
                                      ShadowX
                                      last edited by

                                      Do you have a specific reason to go with stainless steel nozzle? Unless you're using abrasive material and fillers, brass is a better choice. I recall the original use was for food industries or where it can contact with humans. Brass has small amount of lead and is not suitable in those industries. Stainless steel is one of the WORST material to use for a nozzle from a thermal perspective. That is why they are used on the heat breaks. It was mainly to prevent or reduce the heat from the heater block moving to the throat/extruder area and cause clogs.

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                                      • InSanityundefined
                                        InSanity
                                        last edited by

                                        @ShadowX:

                                        Do you have a specific reason to go with SS nozzle? Unless you're using abrasive material and fillers, brass is a better choice. I recall the original use was for food surface or contact with human. Brass has small amount of lead and is not suitable in those industries. It is one of the WORST material to use for a nozzle from a thermal perspective.

                                        I have brand new rolls of Bras fill, Bronze fill, Aluminum fill, Copper fill, Carbon Fiber, Glow in the dark, wood fill, and I believe a couple others. My boss at work sent me a bunch of rolls over the holidays via Amazon. So my goal with the hardened steel novelize was to make it the daily driver as well as needed item for those filaments.

                                        Jeff

                                        Duet WiFi Powered FFCP with E3D legends hotend system. BLTouch grid leveling.

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                                        • dc42undefined
                                          dc42 administrators
                                          last edited by

                                          I've been using the same 0.5mm stainless steel nozzles on my Ormerod ever since I built it 3 years ago and later upgraded it to dual nozzle. They have always worked well for me, although I only print PLA on that machine. I can see that brass might because better choice for something like a Volcano where more heat needs to be transferred.

                                          Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                          Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                          http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

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                                          • DjDemonDundefined
                                            DjDemonD
                                            last edited by

                                            I've seen nozzles where brass or even copper is used for the bulk of the nozzle with just a thin layer or coating of hardened material. This should offer wear resistance but with a thinner layer of less conductive hardened material, there is better heat transfer. On the other hand brass nozzles are cheap and cheerful, maybe just change them weekly and carry on.

                                            Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
                                            www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
                                            PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly!

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