Pressured air cooling controlled with servo and ball valve

BoA

@MaxGyver said in Pressured air cooling controlled with servo and ball valve:

Although on higher frequencies (Q>4000) the valve stopped whining, so I am going to stick to those.

This will for sure change the valve response characteristics. Perhaps this is why the valv response is not as stated in spec.

400Hz is the way to go.

MaxGyver

@BoA The valve response characteristics do not change with the PWM-Setting. I have the same response with 300, 400 or higher Hz. Only with high Hz the valve is noiseless.

Cheers
Max

lael

@MaxGyver how is this valve working out for you? I'm looking at a similar setup but using a compressed air source instead of an aquarium pump.

Have you put a flowmeter after your solenoid to determine how much air you are delivering and able to control the airflow?

MaxGyver

Hey @lael,

yes the setup is working well,

I am using this pump by the way.

It has more than enough airflow, good pressure and is not too noisy.
I am switching the 230V power for the pump with a relay.

The valve is also working good so far. Although I have not figured out how to map it correctly to get a range of 0-100% airflow like mentioned in my previous posts.
Right now I am printing with PLA where I have it fully open all the time anyway.

I have tested the airflow with a flow meter. At the hotend I have an airflow of around 20-25l/min. This reduction is mostly due to the 4 mm internal diameter of my tubing. But so far the airflow is sufficient.

-Max

lael

@MaxGyver Good to hear! That is quite a lot more airflow than Berd Air will supply. What is the max and min airflows you can control it to?

So for the wiring configuration you have a relay in line on the PWM fan output that triggers the Relay for 240V to the pump? That way when the fan would be on the pump turns on?

lael

In terms of part cooling at the hotend - this guy: https://twitter.com/brendonbuilds/status/1313914876922912768/photo/1 has an interesting setup. Looks like a resin printed part, but a 6mm aluminium tube should be able to be bent into the same design.

MaxGyver

@lael I can control the flow from 0% to 100%. The problem is that this range corresponds to the area of 80-100% fan speed on the duet. My workaround is to set the minimum fanspeed in my slicer to just over 80%.

Since I am also cooling my hotend with the air pump, I have set up the relay to trigger when the hotend reaches a certain temperature.

lael

I can see how that would create some frustrations with slicing. Do you have any photos of your hotend cooling setup - that sounds neat!

lael

@MaxGyver I wonder if the control restriction you are seeing is related to the lack of air pressure running through the valve. If you take a look at a similar, but different valve here: https://docs.rs-online.com/02fd/A700000006738966.pdf (SMC, amperage controlled, not PWM), you can see that the operating pressure has a direct correlation to the operating range of the valve, and that with too low an air pressure, the total flow (lpm) will be reduced.

It also seems that a larger bore is more effective with a lower pressure. (What bore size is the model you got?) I would guess, without doing the math in the burkett data sheet, that their valves would have similar / identical properties.

So for the SMC model at a bore size of 4mm and pressure of 0.04Mpa / ~5psi you would expect to see the total range of flow starting at 230mA and wide open at 320mA/330mA, and with a flow of 0-30Lpm. I wonder if that behaviour is why you are seeing the PWM control in such a narrow band?

lael

I wonder if you were to hook it up to a compressor supply at a higher pressure, then run a pressure regulator after the differential valve whether that would give a greater range of adjustment. Then you could use a flowmeter similar to: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32905397665.html (assuming they also work consistently at such a low pressure...) to measure and control the flow that is released to part cooling.

MaxGyver

@lael The SMC Proportional valve will not work on the Duet since it is not possible to control the amperage properly. According to the data sheet the buerkert valve can be controlled applying a PWM frequency of 300-400 Hz. My guess is that this corresponds to 80-100% fanspeed. In this area I can control the flow very precisely so pressure is not the issue.

I am using this valve

Cheers Max

MaxGyver

Hey, I am sorry to reheat this topic.

I have been using magnetic proportional valves for some time with limited success.
They are hard to control with the duet right now. Furthermore, they tend to heat up during longer use which makes them even harder to control. Since they are also very expensive I switched back to RC-servos and ball valves.

Can a demon.g be used to translate the M106 Fan speed into a Servo position?
In my case I need 0%-100% fan speed to equal 0°-90° Servo position. (Or stepper position as an alternative? )

@lael What solution are you using right now?

-Max

o_lampe

@maxgyver said in Pressured air cooling controlled with servo and ball valve:

Can a demon.g be used to translate the M106 Fan speed into a Servo position?
In my case I need 0%-100% fan speed to equal 0°-90° Servo position. (Or stepper position as an alternative? )

It would be nice if we could write a macro called 'M106' and put all the math required there. When gcode contains a M106 command, the macro is called instead of the fan definition in config.g
I'm currently in a similar position, where I want to change retract/unretract behaviour and use a servo or solenoid for Z-hop.

Phaedrux

@o_lampe said in Pressured air cooling controlled with servo and ball valve:

It would be nice if we could write a macro called 'M106' and put all the math required there. When gcode contains a M106 command, the macro is called instead of the fan definition in config.g

I've suggested that before. while it's currently possible to add a macro to create a new gcode, it's a bit harder to do for an existing gcode function that the firmware expects to behave a certain way.

In this specific case it's been requested to allow M106 to function with things other than fans and it's on the wishlist for now.

o_lampe

@phaedrux said in Pressured air cooling controlled with servo and ball valve:

it's a bit harder to do for an existing gcode function that the firmware expects to behave a certain way.

I see, it would be necessary to find the original M106 code snipped in the source and process the same odds and ends in a custom macro.

MaxGyver

@phaedrux
Can you please post the link to the wishlist post? I would like to follow the thread.

-Max

Phaedrux

@maxgyver The main wishlist forum is here: https://forum.duet3d.com/category/8/firmware-wishlist

I'm not sure where the thread in question was though. It may not have been a request there. But if you want to make it more official you can create a thread there about it.

MikeDC

i did this with limited success for a servo on out7 with ballvalve,

i created a macro called airservovalve with the below

; AirValveServo
if fans[0].actualValue = 0
M280 P1 S0 ; Close the valve
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.01 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.10
M280 P1 S18 ; Open valve 10%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.11 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.20
M280 P1 S36 ; Open valve 20%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.21 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.30
M280 P1 S54 ; Open valve 30%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.31 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.40
M280 P1 S72 ; Open valve 40%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.41 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.50
M280 P1 S90 ; Open valve 50%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.51 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.60
M280 P1 S108 ; Open valve 60%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.61 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.70
M280 P1 S126 ; Open valve 70%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.71 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.80
M280 P1 S144 ; Open valve 80%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.81 && fans[0].actualValue <= 0.90
M280 P1 S162 ; Open valve 90%
elif fans[0].actualValue >= 0.91 && fans[0].actualValue <= 1.0
M280 P1 S180 ; Open valve 100%

Then in Daemon.g added this
M98 P"0:/macros/Special Scripts/AirValveServo"

The only issue was it was a bit slow responding to fan speed changes

MaxGyver

@mikedc

Hey, thank you very much for sharing this. I will give it a try!

-Max

o_lampe

@mikedc
Isn't it better to 'scale' the incoming PWM value to the required servo-angle?
You need to know: min_in, max_in, min_out, max_out.

[**pseudo** code]
var scale_factor = {(max_out - min_out) / (max_in - min_in)}
var servo_out = {scale_factor * (fans[0].actualValue - min_in) + min_out}

There's a standard formula to scale variables, but I couldn't write it down from memory.. Have to google it..
//edit This should work, just have to put it in clean gcode-meta