Where's the Duet Wifi 3?
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@bearer said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
@hackinistrator said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
if the board is meant for the industry or professionals - they dont use those toy computers also.
pretty sure i just watched a Jeff Gerling video showing statistics from Raspberry Pi Trading that almost half of the 35 million Pi's sold, were sold to industry clients.
but this does seem to be the thread for venting so maybe i should take my facts elsewhere.
I'll take the brunt of the complaining comment. I only bought several Duets and peripherals so as a paying customer not 100% satisfied with the upgrade path, I'm entitled to my opinion. God forbid anyone should think differently from the herd. Seems to be a theme in 2020... just go along with the herd... hey NOPE!
Please list the number of commercial or industrial motion controllers that use raspberry pi computers on them. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but a Smoothieboard is not commercial and not anywhere near industrial.
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@bearer
Indeed those small SBCs, like the PI are far from "toys" and are widely used in many fields.
My car has over 100 very small computers with far less capability than a PI.
Frederick
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@fcwilt I'm sure there are...BUT how many controllers you are likely to see sold on a commercial or industrial CNC machine use a RPi? The answer is zero.
On a 'hobby' machine, anything goes and that's where you see RPi's and Arduino based hardware. Why? The answer ALWAYS is because they are cheap to buy & no other reason.
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interesting thread, was thinking about the same thing a few days ago.
I have 2 duet 2 wifi's and I really like those boards, while @Veti and @bearer have valid points concerning the Rpi, there is one factor that must be taken into account here and that is cost, not everyone wants to shell out 200€ for a Duet 3 (and the Rpi isn't free either!).
I would love to see a new HW version of the Duet 2 wifi, maybe with a faster CPU and better wifi (ESP32 + external antenna ? ) -
@BDubs said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
@fcwilt I'm sure there are...BUT how many controllers you are likely to see sold on a commercial or industrial CNC machine use a RPi? The answer is zero.
On a 'hobby' machine, anything goes and that's where you see RPi's and Arduino based hardware. Why? The answer ALWAYS is because they are cheap to buy & no other reason.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
Some 35 plus years in the industry and the biggest difference is form factor. Industrial controllers are often less capable than a PI.
I've used industrial automation controllers that were in the same price range as a PI. They tend to be more rugged and this has an associated cost.
Frederick
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I was wondering how many posts before we'd be comparing processing power of the Pi to the lunar module...
How much longer will the WiFi 2 will be produced before the end of life announcement is made? There are many printer manufacturers out there that use it currently.
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@whosrdaddy said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
interesting thread, was thinking about the same thing a few days ago.
I have 2 duet 2 wifi's and I really like those boards, while @Veti and @bearer have valid points concerning the Rpi, there is one factor that must be taken into account here and that is cost, not everyone wants to shell out 200€ for a Duet 3 (and the Rpi isn't free either!).
I would love to see a new HW version of the Duet 2 wifi, maybe with a faster CPU and better wifi (ESP32 + external antenna ? )Yeah...I was thinking the Pi was still like $35. Yikes...$89 for a RPi4 with 8 GB. That's over $325 USD for a Duet 3 with WiFi capability. Yeah ok you can do the rj45 to wifi thing for less but still. It's twice the cost of a WiFi 2.
It's significant because many of us have more than one printer.
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if you don't waste the RAM chips, you can still get an RPi4 for 35$. And for many 3d printers, the Duet 3 mini 5+ is a viable option, which is about 129$ IIRC and will come in a wifi version.
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@BDubs said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
That's over $325 USD for a Duet 3 with WiFi capability.
you are complaining that the duet 3 with features that not everyone needs is to expensive, yet for you the mini 5 wifi does not have enought features for you.
take your pick really.
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@BDubs I'll just add that the faster processor on gen 3 is actually just a number. It doesn't gain you anything. Until very recently, the maximum step pulse frequency was actually a LOT slower using RRF 3 firmware which is what you have to use with Gen 3, than it is on the older gen 2. I'm still waiting for a stable version of RRF3 to verify if the step pulse frequency is now as good as the older gen 2 product.
I assume that you've also checked out the list of firmware limitations which apply to gen 3 products but which do not apply to gen 2?
Unless you need the higher current driver's or want to run more than 12 steppers, then gen 2 remains the better choice by far (and it gives you the WiFi option without the need to add another layer of complexity and cost in the form of an SBC).
That's just my opinion of course, but I've had every version of Duet products from the earliest 06 boards to the "latest and greatest".
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imho again , the main advantage of the 3rd gen board is not the drivers or the cpu . its the CAN bus .
i hope in the future there will be a possibility to connect the duet3 to industrial servo drivers , maybe device net servos also . -
@oliof said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
if you don't waste the RAM chips, you can still get an RPi4 for 35$.
Thanks for that. Looks like a 2GB Pi4 is $35ish - I'd get the 8GB one because more is "more better" as they say
@Veti said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
you are complaining that the duet 3 with features that not everyone needs is to expensive, yet for you the mini 5 wifi does not have enought features for you.
take your pick really.
My pick would be a Wifi 3...which would be the natural progression from the Wifi 2. To use the analogy again: If you bought an XYZ brand laptop in 2020 for $400 - and then wanted to get another one in 2021 that was supposed to be 'updated' - EXCEPT it doesn't come with wifi anymore - you have to buy a 3rd party add on to get it - oh and it's total cost is now $800 - would you buy it? Chances are the answer would be no.
@deckingman said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
@BDubs I'll just add that the faster processor on gen 3 is actually just a number. It doesn't gain you anything. Until very recently, the maximum step pulse frequency was actually a LOT slower using RRF 3 firmware which is what you have to use with Gen 3, than it is on the older gen 2. I'm still waiting for a stable version of RRF3 to verify if the step pulse frequency is now as good as the older gen 2 product.
I assume that you've also checked out the list of firmware limitations which apply to gen 3 products but which do not apply to gen 2?
Unless you need the higher current driver's or want to run more than 12 steppers, then gen 2 remains the better choice by far (and it gives you the WiFi option without the need to add another layer of complexity and cost in the form of an SBC).
That's just my opinion of course, but I've had every version of Duet products from the earliest 06 boards to the "latest and greatest".
Thanks for that - processor, or rather pulse rate, was the original yard stick when choosing the Duet. Not the same logic as most who are in dreamworld about speed...more like being able to run say 10:1 mechanical reduction and set the driver to full stepping to mitigate the hysteresis associated with microstepping (and torque loss on top of it) - but that's crazy talk because few can ever fathom what I just wrote and the reason behind it.
I'd be interested to know if RRF3 is on par with RRF2 in terms of max pulse rate, too. I'm config'd with RRF3 right now...but may go back to RRF2 after reading what you wrote.
@hackinistrator said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
imho again , the main advantage of the 3rd gen board is not the drivers or the cpu . its the CAN bus .
i hope in the future there will be a possibility to connect the duet3 to industrial servo drivers , maybe device net servos also .Yes...CANBus connectivity is nice. We'll finally be able to use those servos we hoarded off of Ebay that we swore took S&D years ago (or was that just me?)
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if you don't waste the RAM chips, you can still get an RPi4 for 35$.
Thanks for that. Looks like a 2GB Pi4 is $35ish - I'd get the 8GB one because more is "more better" as they sayBuhu Its too expensive.
There is a cheaper option.
But I want the expensive one
... lol + facepalm + thumb down ...
The Duet3 mini (aka 5LC) is the next version of the Duet 2 Maestro, the low end, (relatively) low cost offering. So complaining about it not being as fully featured as the Duet 3 6HC or Duet 2 Wifi/Ethernet makes about as much sense as the rest of of the nonsense you're complaining about as it has a completely different customer base.
I guess I'll leave this thread by dropping the bomb that the CAN bus (currently) in use on both the Duet 3 6HC and mini is CAN-FD, so odds are it won't work with servos (but you'd know that if you bothered to search the forum)
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Buhu Its too expensive.
There is a cheaper option.
But I want the expensive one
... lol + facepalm + thumb down ...
The Duet3 mini (aka 5LC) is the next version of the Duet 2 Maestro, the low end, (relatively) low cost offering. So complaining about it not being as fully featured as the Duet 3 6HC or Duet 2 Wifi/Ethernet makes about as much sense as the rest of of the nonsense you're complaining about as it has a completely different customer base.
I guess I'll leave this thread by dropping the bomb that the CAN bus (currently) in use on both the Duet 3 6HC and mini is CAN-FD, so odds are it won't work with servos (but you'd know that if you bothered to search the forum)
Please - Facepalm yourself a few more times. In fact, keep doing it until I tell you to stop. You didn't comprehend the 'issue'. Go read it again as you seem to have only read the parts that suit you. If you had read my post up-thread, you would get it:
@BDubs said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
- Faster processor speed (300Mhz vs 120MHz)
- Higher current onboard drivers for NEMA23/34 motors
- More GPIO
etc, etc...
Why settle for less?
I'm fully aware that the Mini 5 is wireless and has less I/O and processor speed than the Duet 3. I don't want it. It doesn't have enough I/O and the onboard drivers don't have enough amps for the motors I want to run. I have already stated this up-thread.
Furthermore - to get what I want in the latest form - it's twice the cost. Somehow me pointing that out is now whining? What do you think that the price is going to come down because I pointed out a simple observation? The price is what it is - doesn't mean I have to like it - AND it doesn't give you carte blanche to be a douche. Take it down a notch.
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I would agree that for normal usage i love my duet2 wifi boards...i have 5 of them running on my printers, but for my cnc the duet 2 wifi is not enough because the motors i use are way more power hunger than the tmc2660 could do...so thinking that if i have to buy and use duet 3 board i need to run ethernet cable to be able to use it in standalone mode, witch is a no go for me, and buying a sbc board just to have wifi for a board that already have a high cost is no go as well...
So for me the obvious solution now is to use either duet2wifi with external stepper drivers or to use skr board with rrf firmware(this last is no brainer in terms of cost...)
So 1 more vote from me for a duet 3 board with wifi on it -
@deckingman said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
I'm still waiting for a stable version of RRF3 to verify if the step pulse frequency is now as good as the older gen 2 product.
It's very much better now. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AWA1wLbOaYzxzdQa5LRZvn9rgEk2BuluHy6-_OnD6FY/edit#gid=0
Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com -
@BDubs said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
................... - processor, or rather pulse rate, was the original yard stick when choosing the Duet. Not the same logic as most who are in dreamworld about speed...more like being able to run say 10:1 mechanical reduction and set the driver to full stepping to mitigate the hysteresis associated with microstepping (and torque loss on top of it) - but that's crazy talk because few can ever fathom what I just wrote and the reason behind it.
I'd be interested to know if RRF3 is on par with RRF2 in terms of max pulse rate, too. I'm config'd with RRF3 right now...but may go back to RRF2 after reading what you wrote.
If that is you usage case, then Duet 3 will be more than adequate in terms of step pulse frequency - even with the old firmware (but of course, you still have the WiFi access problem). For my particular usage case, the requirement stemmed from the need to use>16X micro stepping (ideally as high as 128X) in order to attain the necessary extruder resolution when using a mixing hot end and where one or more filament moves might be single digit percentages of the whole. For normal extruder moves, even such a high micro-step setting isn't a problem but it is when retracting. Like you, I foolishly thought that the higher processor speed would lead to increased performance in that respect so it was more than a little disappointing to find that it was actually much worse (but that may be fixed in the latest firmware).
One other thing about using an SBC for WiFi access is that one first has to wait for the SBC to boot before the Duet itself boots up. That additional boot up time could problematic depending on your usage case.
If it wasn't for the fact that I run >12 stepper motors, I'd be putting the gen 2 Duet back. I do have wired Ethernet so I run the Duet3 in stand alone mode because the RPi doesn't give me any additional functionality to compensate for all it's downsides (I've removed the RPi completely and repurposed it to run home automation instead).
One thing that might sway you towards Duet3 is that expansion boards don't have to be close to the main board like the Duet2/Duex combinations do. So that might simplify the wiring. But again, the list of limitations regarding motor/end stop/probe type/ board combinations might prevent you from putting the expansion board where you would ideally like it to be and/or wiring things in the neatest way. (Something else that I found out the hard way).
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@dc42 said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
@deckingman said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
I'm still waiting for a stable version of RRF3 to verify if the step pulse frequency is now as good as the older gen 2 product.
It's very much better now. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AWA1wLbOaYzxzdQa5LRZvn9rgEk2BuluHy6-_OnD6FY/edit#gid=0
No data on that spread sheet for the expansion boards with RC1. They were the most problematic for me with earlier firmware. Any idea what I might expect when doing firmware retraction simultaneously with 3 extruders per expansion board and two boards (so 6 extruders in total).?
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@deckingman said in Where's the Duet Wifi 3?:
No data on that spread sheet for the expansion boards with RC1. They were the most problematic for me with earlier firmware. Any idea what I might expect when doing firmware retraction simultaneously with 3 extruders per expansion board and two boards (so 6 extruders in total).?
Expect the same performance as for 3.2beta1, which is substantially better than for 3.1.0.
