Duet3D Logo Duet3D
    • Tags
    • Documentation
    • Order
    • Register
    • Login

    Stringing with PLA

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved
    Tuning and tweaking
    9
    32
    2.0k
    Loading More Posts
    • Oldest to Newest
    • Newest to Oldest
    • Most Votes
    Reply
    • Reply as topic
    Log in to reply
    This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
    • Toddmundefined
      Toddm
      last edited by

      What would you change first?

      Both at 195C on the extruder, Pressure advance is ON at 0.5, Build grade PLA from MatterHackers. SeeMeCNC Rostock Max V2, Duet 3 mini 5+ Wifi, Smart Effector, E3D V6 0.4mm Hot end, 600mm bowden.

      First pic is 3.2mm retraction.
      PXL_20220414_140809427.jpg

      2nd pic is 5mm retraction.
      PXL_20220415_025933021.jpg

      dc42undefined Stephen6309undefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • Phaedruxundefined
        Phaedrux Moderator
        last edited by

        It would help to see your config.g and possibly a sliced gcode file so we can see your slicer settings.

        Google will also provide several retraction tuning guides.

        Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

        Toddmundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • dc42undefined
          dc42 administrators @Toddm
          last edited by

          @toddm try reducing extruder temperature.

          Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
          Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
          http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

          Toddmundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • Toddmundefined
            Toddm @Phaedrux
            last edited by

            @phaedrux
            config.g
            SRMAXV32_four_square_cons 5mm.gcode

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • Toddmundefined
              Toddm @dc42
              last edited by

              @dc42 I'll try a lower temp. Thanks!

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • Toddmundefined
                Toddm @dc42
                last edited by

                @dc42 I think 190 wins, strings are finer, no boogers on the posts like the 185C and dimensionally it looks better. Also there was some under extrusion on 185 and the extruded popped a few times. I guess I need to slow it down and up the current or reduce the micro stepping if I want to run at 185.
                PXL_20220415_125056753 (1).jpg

                engikeneerundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • engikeneerundefined
                  engikeneer @Toddm
                  last edited by

                  @toddm given you said the 185C case was popping, I'd try drying your filament out. Wet filament can often string a lot, and you get popping when a spec of water boils in the filament.

                  I'd be tempted to try even lower temp and retune PA and retraction for that to see if it's better?

                  Upping xy & e acceleration/jerk may also help a bit, but looks like you're on the right path

                  E3D TC with D3Mini and Toolboards.
                  Home-built CoreXY, Duet Wifi, Chimera direct drive, 2x BMG, 300x300x300 build volume
                  i3 clone with a bunch of mods

                  Toddmundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • Stephen6309undefined
                    Stephen6309 @Toddm
                    last edited by

                    @toddm When I was using a bowden, I was using 6mm of retraction with an E3DV6. With a bowden, you need to retract enough so the filament actually retracts in the hotend.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Toddmundefined
                      Toddm @engikeneer
                      last edited by

                      @engikeneer The popping was coming from the Extruder motor slipping. The PLA spool says its good for 180-220, so I can go 5 degrees lower. So far I just seem to make it worse. I've gone to 10mm retraction and that looks no different from 3.5mm but its a lot slower! I tried to print a calibration cube but all the retractions from the infill were bumping the hot end away from its path on the inner wall, and I could even hear it a little bit on the outer wall. I stopped that print and tried it with no retractions and it still looks awful. I'm beginning to think something else is wrong. I also bumped the extruder down to 1/64 micro stepping and turned up the current to 1.9A. the steps/mm should be 371 but I have it set to 375 to try to extrude slightly more because of gaps in the infill and first layer, may have been a bad move? This is getting frustrating, I don't know what to do next.

                      3.5mm Retract (default) 190C hot end temp:
                      PXL_20220418_010805938.jpg

                      Ugly Calibration Cube, No retraction:
                      PXL_20220418_005313542.jpg

                      PXL_20220418_010154848.jpg

                      PXL_20220418_010201623.jpg

                      ; Configuration file for Duet 3 Mini 5+ (firmware version 3.3)
                      ; executed by the firmware on start-up
                      ;
                      ; generated by RepRapFirmware Configuration Tool v3.3.10 on Mon Mar 21 2022 07:51:19 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time)
                      
                      ; General preferences
                      G90                                           ; send absolute coordinates...
                      M83                                           ; ...but relative extruder moves
                      M550 P"My Printer"                            ; set printer name
                      M665 R142.875 L288.08 B133.35 H335            ; Set delta radius, diagonal rod length, printable radius and homed height
                      M666 X0 Y0 Z0                                 ; put your endstop adjustments here, or let auto calibration find them
                      
                      ; Network
                      M552 S1                                       ; enable network
                      M586 P0 S1                                    ; enable HTTP
                      M586 P1 S0                                    ; disable FTP
                      M586 P2 S0                                    ; disable Telnet
                      
                      ; Drives
                      M569 P0.0 S0                                  ; physical drive 0.0 goes forwards
                      M569 P0.1 S1                                  ; physical drive 0.1 goes forwards
                      M569 P0.2 S0                                  ; physical drive 0.2 goes forwards
                      M569 P0.3 S0                                  ; physical drive 0.3 goes forwards
                      M584 X0.0 Y0.1 Z0.2 E0.3                      ; set drive mapping
                      M350 X128 Y128 Z128 E64 I1                   ; configure microstepping without interpolation
                      M92 X640.00 Y640.00 Z640.00 E375.00           ; set steps per mm
                      M566 X1200.00 Y1200.00 Z1200.00 E1200.00      ; set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
                      M203 X18000.00 Y18000.00 Z18000.00 E1200.00   ; set maximum speeds (mm/min)
                      M201 X1000.00 Y1000.00 Z1000.00 E1000.00      ; set accelerations (mm/s^2)
                      M906 X1200 Y1200 Z1200 E1900 I30               ; set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
                      M84 S30                                       ; Set idle timeout
                      
                      ; Axis Limits
                      M208 Z0 S1                                    ; set minimum Z
                      
                      ; Endstops
                      M574 X2 S1 P"io0.in"                          ; configure switch-type (e.g. microswitch) endstop for high end on X via pin io0.in
                      M574 Y2 S1 P"io1.in"                          ; configure switch-type (e.g. microswitch) endstop for high end on Y via pin io1.in
                      M574 Z2 S1 P"io2.in"                          ; configure switch-type (e.g. microswitch) endstop for high end on Z via pin io2.in
                      
                      ; Z-Probe
                      M558 P8 R0.4 C"io3.in+io3.out" H5 F1200 T6000 B1 ; set Z probe type to effector and the dive height + speeds, B1 turns off the bed heater during probing to stop the noise.
                      ;M558 H30                                      ;*** Remove this line after delta calibration has been done and new delta parameters have been saved
                      G31 P100 X0 Y0 Z -0.3                           ; set Z probe trigger value, offset and trigger height
                      M557 R85 S20                                  ; define mesh grid
                      
                      ; Heaters
                      M308 S0 P"temp1" Y"thermistor" T100000 B4138  ; configure sensor 0 as thermistor on pin temp1
                      M950 H0 C"out0" T0                            ; create bed heater output on out0 and map it to sensor 0
                      M307 H0 B1 S1.00 F100                         ; enable bang-bang mode for the bed heater and set PWM limit
                      M140 H0                                       ; map heated bed to heater 0
                      M143 H0 S120                                  ; set temperature limit for heater 0 to 120C
                      M308 S1 P"temp0" Y"thermistor" T100000 B4138  ; configure sensor 1 as thermistor on pin temp0
                      M950 H1 C"out1" T1                            ; create nozzle heater output on out1 and map it to sensor 1
                      M307 H1 B0 S1.00                              ; disable bang-bang mode for heater  and set PWM limit
                      M143 H1 S280                                  ; set temperature limit for heater 1 to 280C
                      
                      ; Fans
                      M950 F0 C"out3" Q500                          ; create fan 0 on pin out3 and set its frequency   LAYER
                      M106 P0 S1 H-1 B0.5                             ; set fan 0 value. Thermostatic control is turned off
                      M950 F1 C"out4" Q500                          ; create fan 1 on pin out4 and set its frequency	HOT END
                      M106 P1 S1 H1 T40 B0.5                              ; set fan 1 value. Thermostatic control is turned off
                      
                      ; Tools
                      M563 P0 D0 H1 F0                              ; define tool 0
                      G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0                               ; set tool 0 axis offsets
                      G10 P0 R0 S0                                  ; set initial tool 0 active and standby temperatures to 0C
                      
                      ; Custom settings are not defined
                      
                      ; Miscellaneous
                      M501                                          ; load saved parameters from non-volatile memory
                      
                      
                      Phaedruxundefined Lo-Fiundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Phaedruxundefined
                        Phaedrux Moderator
                        last edited by

                        That's a weird mix of under extrusion and over extrusion. Can you post your slicer settings as well, or just sliced gcode file?

                        It may help to go through this extruder calibration guide.

                        https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Guide/Ender+3+Pro+and+Duet+Maestro+Guide+Part+4:+Calibration/40#s165

                        Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Phaedruxundefined
                          Phaedrux Moderator @Toddm
                          last edited by

                          @toddm said in Stringing with PLA:

                          M350 X128 Y128 Z128 E64 I1 ; configure microstepping without interpolation M92 X640.00 Y640.00 Z640.00 E375.00 ; set steps per mm

                          You should stick to x16 microstepping with interpolation enabled.

                          Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • rjenkinsgbundefined
                            rjenkinsgb
                            last edited by

                            @toddm said in Stringing with PLA:

                            What would you change first?
                            Both at 195C on the extruder,

                            I always run at 210'C for PLA and get excellent results!
                            To me it looks like the stringing is as the plastic is not molten enough, so stretching rather than separating as a liquid.

                            Robert J.

                            Printers: Overlord pro, Kossel XL+ with Duet 6HC and "Frankentron", TronXY X5SA Pro converted to E3D toolchange with Duet 6HC and 1LC toolboards.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Lo-Fiundefined
                              Lo-Fi @Toddm
                              last edited by

                              @toddm 20mm/s max extruder speed you've specified is probably the cause of your problem: it's too slow for retraction. I run 40mm/s, 4-6mm retract on my bowden with PLA anywhere from 195 to 230 deg. I have yet to find PLA that's reliably happy under 190 myself.

                              Try at least E2400 in M203, with slicer settings to match. FWIW: My experience has been that the retract speed is just as important as distance, if not more so.

                              Let us know how you get on!

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Toddmundefined
                                Toddm
                                last edited by

                                Thanks for all of the tips! I have Changed to 1/16 micro stepping, adjusted the max extruder speed to allow 45mm/s as called for in Cura (good catch Lo-Fi) and started running at 210C.

                                The calibration cube looks better in some respects especially the sidewalls. There is not nearly as much over extrusion and the layers look flat. The infill has gaps and does not appear to be extruding properly and the top 2 layers are way too light. You can also see the ripples in the outer wall from where the nozzle is getting bumped out of its path by dollops left from the ends of the infill lines. I'll include the G code that I used since I didn't save the slicer settings. The black mark is where I turned on Pressure advance at 0.5.
                                SRMAXV32_xyzCalibration_cube 210C.gcode
                                PXL_20220423_162114723.jpg PXL_20220423_162128227.jpg

                                Next up is the stringing tests. The one on the left is pressure advance off and the one on the right is pressure advance at 0.5.
                                PXL_20220423_171512119.jpg
                                Current Config.G:

                                ; Configuration file for Duet 3 Mini 5+ (firmware version 3.3)
                                ; executed by the firmware on start-up
                                ;
                                ; generated by RepRapFirmware Configuration Tool v3.3.10 on Mon Mar 21 2022 07:51:19 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time)
                                
                                ; General preferences
                                G90                                           ; send absolute coordinates...
                                M83                                           ; ...but relative extruder moves
                                M550 P"My Printer"                            ; set printer name
                                M665 R142.875 L288.08 B133.35 H335            ; Set delta radius, diagonal rod length, printable radius and homed height
                                M666 X0 Y0 Z0                                 ; put your endstop adjustments here, or let auto calibration find them
                                
                                ; Network
                                M552 S1                                       ; enable network
                                M586 P0 S1                                    ; enable HTTP
                                M586 P1 S0                                    ; disable FTP
                                M586 P2 S0                                    ; disable Telnet
                                
                                ; Drives
                                M569 P0.0 S0                                  ; physical drive 0.0 goes forwards
                                M569 P0.1 S1                                  ; physical drive 0.1 goes forwards
                                M569 P0.2 S0                                  ; physical drive 0.2 goes forwards
                                M569 P0.3 S0                                  ; physical drive 0.3 goes forwards
                                M584 X0.0 Y0.1 Z0.2 E0.3                      ; set drive mapping
                                M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1                	      ; configure microstepping without interpolation
                                M92 X80.00 Y80.00 Z80.00 E94.4		          ; set steps per mm
                                M566 X1200.00 Y1200.00 Z1200.00 E2700.00      ; set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
                                M203 X18000.00 Y18000.00 Z18000.00 E2700.00   ; set maximum speeds (mm/min)
                                M201 X1000.00 Y1000.00 Z1000.00 E1000.00      ; set accelerations (mm/s^2)
                                M906 X1200 Y1200 Z1200 E1900 I30               ; set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
                                M84 S30                                       ; Set idle timeout
                                
                                ; Axis Limits
                                M208 Z0 S1                                    ; set minimum Z
                                
                                ; Endstops
                                M574 X2 S1 P"io0.in"                          ; configure switch-type (e.g. microswitch) endstop for high end on X via pin io0.in
                                M574 Y2 S1 P"io1.in"                          ; configure switch-type (e.g. microswitch) endstop for high end on Y via pin io1.in
                                M574 Z2 S1 P"io2.in"                          ; configure switch-type (e.g. microswitch) endstop for high end on Z via pin io2.in
                                
                                ; Z-Probe
                                M558 P8 R0.4 C"io3.in+io3.out" H5 F1200 T6000 B1 ; set Z probe type to effector and the dive height + speeds, B1 turns off the bed heater during probing to stop the noise.
                                ;M558 H30                                      ;*** Remove this line after delta calibration has been done and new delta parameters have been saved
                                G31 P100 X0 Y0 Z -0.3                           ; set Z probe trigger value, offset and trigger height
                                M557 R85 S20                                  ; define mesh grid
                                
                                ; Heaters
                                M308 S0 P"temp1" Y"thermistor" T100000 B4138  ; configure sensor 0 as thermistor on pin temp1
                                M950 H0 C"out0" T0                            ; create bed heater output on out0 and map it to sensor 0
                                M307 H0 B1 S1.00 F100                         ; enable bang-bang mode for the bed heater and set PWM limit
                                M140 H0                                       ; map heated bed to heater 0
                                M143 H0 S120                                  ; set temperature limit for heater 0 to 120C
                                M308 S1 P"temp0" Y"thermistor" T100000 B4138  ; configure sensor 1 as thermistor on pin temp0
                                M950 H1 C"out1" T1                            ; create nozzle heater output on out1 and map it to sensor 1
                                M307 H1 B0 S1.00                              ; disable bang-bang mode for heater  and set PWM limit
                                M143 H1 S280                                  ; set temperature limit for heater 1 to 280C
                                
                                ; Fans
                                M950 F0 C"out3" Q500                          ; create fan 0 on pin out3 and set its frequency   LAYER
                                M106 P0 S1 H-1 B0.5                             ; set fan 0 value. Thermostatic control is turned off
                                M950 F1 C"out4" Q500                          ; create fan 1 on pin out4 and set its frequency	HOT END
                                M106 P1 S1 H1 T40 B0.5                              ; set fan 1 value. Thermostatic control is turned off
                                
                                ; Tools
                                M563 P0 D0 H1 F0                              ; define tool 0
                                G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0                               ; set tool 0 axis offsets
                                G10 P0 R0 S0                                  ; set initial tool 0 active and standby temperatures to 0C
                                
                                ; Custom settings are not defined
                                
                                ; Miscellaneous
                                M501                                          ; load saved parameters from non-volatile memory
                                
                                
                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Toddmundefined
                                  Toddm
                                  last edited by

                                  I then calibrated the extruder using the method Paedrux linked to above. I printed the object recommended with the recommended settings and had some weird results:

                                  The brim was over extruding (?) and smearing on one corner and along one side, but the area where it was the thinnest due to my build plate not being flat (?) did not smear. Its definitely the thicker parts of the brim that had issues. On the walls there are adhesion issues/under extrusion that tended to get better as it printed. By the time it got to the seam it looked pretty good on the inner wall. The outer wall has the same look to it but it would start out looking good and get worse as it made its way closer to the seam. Both inner and outer walls were printing CCW except the first or second layer. I tried to get some light behind the print so you could see the patterns of gaps.

                                  PXL_20220424_030559874.jpg PXL_20220424_030552342.jpg PXL_20220424_191529707.jpg

                                  infiniteloopundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • infiniteloopundefined
                                    infiniteloop @Toddm
                                    last edited by

                                    @toddm I’ve only seen such a weird print "quality" on my printer in two cases: once with some screws coming loose - clearly mechanical problems with two axes playing havoc … and once with a filament which drove me nuts: over- and under-extrusion, blurbs, stringing, clogged nozzle … short: a hell in 3D.

                                    I suggest you to check the mechanics of your printer carefully - forget any tuning and tweaking as long as the basics do not work properly. Every printer should be able to deposit some filament in a somehow regular fashion - slow, surely not perfect, but - more or less - reliable.

                                    Without PA and all the other bells and whistles RRF (or the slicer) has to offer, any printer must be able to lay down evenly formed extrusions in an ordered way, at least at low speeds (20-40 mm/s max).

                                    If that doesn’t work, try another filament. Sorry that I can’t be more specific, but your pictures tell me at least two stories: mechanical issues and erratical extrusion - the third story could be about speed …

                                    Toddmundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • Phaedruxundefined
                                      Phaedrux Moderator
                                      last edited by

                                      Can you post a video of that print in action?

                                      Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • Toddmundefined
                                        Toddm @infiniteloop
                                        last edited by

                                        @infiniteloop I tend to agree with you. I was watching it put down a first layer and the extrusion is inconsistent, some of it is obviously squeezing out past the nozzle making a wider track and bunching up and some of it is just barely stringing and not even bonding to the bed. I was trying to figure out if it was related to speed or just the extruder. This printer is not very rigid in my opinion, but slow speeds like you mentioned should be ok I would think? I tightened all the bolts holding the uprights to the base and the top a few weeks ago. The rounded off square print above was printed at 30mm/s at the fastest. The outer layer was only 15mm/s ( I missed that in the slicer settings, intending it to all be 30mm/s). I have also thought about moving the extruder from the top of the machine to about halfway down so I can use a shorter bowden tube. Its about 700mm right now. The frustrating thing is that this printer worked a few months ago before all of the upgrades (aside from stringing), but the stock PEEK heatsink in the hot end melted and destroyed the hot end. That was why I decided to upgrade everything. That might have been a mistake!

                                        I have some older PETG and various other spools of PLA. The white PLA I'm using was fresh out of the bag a few weeks ago after I gave up on the older spool I was using. The new spool made no difference.

                                        Last night I read that a partially clogged nozzle could possibly cause this. I have noticed that if I just extrude plastic at the max rate, about 6.5mm/s that it almost always curls back to the tip of the nozzle and it will also get really thick after a few seconds especially after the end of the plastic makes contact with the bed. I am running it really hard at that point, the extruder will start skipping at 6.7mm/s. While taking the nozzle out I broke the ground wire to the hot end fan. Now I need to find a way to release the broken pin so I can crimp on another one. Once the wire broke, I shut it off and walked away.

                                        infiniteloopundefined jens55undefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • infiniteloopundefined
                                          infiniteloop @Toddm
                                          last edited by

                                          @toddm said in Stringing with PLA:

                                          Once the wire broke, I shut it off and walked away.

                                          Sorry for the lack of luck with your printer - more than enough reasons to walk away. I had a similar run when I started to print with a fresh roll of PETG - never had problems with PETG so far, but with that material, everything went wrong. I ended up with wild theories, replaced many parts of my print head (and some other mechanics as well), tried zillions of adjustments in RRF - to no avail. With some PETG from another manufacturer, the problems finally vanished over night.

                                          PLA is more forgiving, but more hygroscopic as well. Old PLA can often be revived by drying it at around 50 °C in an oven for 4-6 hours. But if the manufacturer can’t hold the diameter within very narrow limits, you have no chance to get a proper extrusion. Happened to me.

                                          The good thing about those struggles is that we learn a lot about our printers - one thing, for example, is to print slowly in order to achieve good quality for cheap. 20 vs. 40 mm/s can make a huge difference with fine details. Of course, a long bowden (mine has 700 mm, too) promotes stringing, but in your case, that is a secondary problem.

                                          First, bring up your hotend again. Then, use some other filament. This is especially true if you encountered a partially clogged nozzle: you’re right with your suspicion, that can cause all kinds of trouble - but it should not happen at all, as long as the chemistry of the filament works. If not, some ingredients burn to debris which accumulates on the walls of the heat break and the nozzle itself.

                                          One final thought: In most cases, even the most complex intricacies have a simple reason - which you will know when you find it 😊 . Wish you luck on that way. 👍

                                          Toddmundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • jens55undefined
                                            jens55 @Toddm
                                            last edited by

                                            @toddm, I have found out that the point where the extruder skips is not the limit. Even before that, you run into irregularities with flow. Having said that, if 6.7 mm/sec gives you extruder skipping, I would think 5 mm/sec should be safe.
                                            I would also check the entire filament path - how easy is it for the extruder to pull filament off the spool? A long Bowden tube can introduce a lot of friction and how easy does the spool unroll? Have you checked tension on your feed rollers? You could have insufficient pinch pressure on the feed rollers introducing variable flow.
                                            30 mm/sec should be achievable by a printer built with chop sticks 🙂
                                            You could try a 'cold pull' on the nozzle. I would be tempted to remove the nozzle and see if filament easy easily pushed through the print head - there should be no obstruction with the nozzle removed. You could try a new nozzle or, if you have a brass nozzle and a plumbers torch handy, burning out the nozzle always clears things up for me.
                                            Anther, less likely reason for inconsistency - Is your slicer set to the right filament diameter (I overlooked that once)?
                                            Looking at your pictures, it seems that filament is laid down properly in one direction but the layers get really bad in another direction - that would seem to indicate mechanical slop in one direction but not the other. I think I would tend to ignore mechanical issues with head positioning at this point and try to concentrate on one issue at the time which would be filament flow. There are a lot of possible problem areas in a 3D printer and unless you tackle them one by one it can get very overwhelming and basically impossible to work out what is going on.
                                            Good luck .... don't tear out too many hairs during trouble shooting ....

                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                            • First post
                                              Last post
                                            Unless otherwise noted, all forum content is licensed under CC-BY-SA