Duet3D Logo Duet3D
    • Tags
    • Documentation
    • Order
    • Register
    • Login

    delta Z motor goes clunk, regardless of motor or driver

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved
    General Discussion
    9
    30
    1.4k
    Loading More Posts
    • Oldest to Newest
    • Newest to Oldest
    • Most Votes
    Reply
    • Reply as topic
    Log in to reply
    This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
    • droftartsundefined
      droftarts administrators @achrn
      last edited by

      @achrn Okay, thanks for testing. I'll dig out my delta tomorrow and test, and ask @dc42.

      Ian

      Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

      achrnundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • achrnundefined
        achrn @droftarts
        last edited by achrn

        I'm using code such as:

        G1 X0.00 Y{var.yval} F9000
        G4 P100
        G1 X{var.xval} Y{var.yval}
        

        wrapped in a loop altering xval or yval.
        The clunk happens at the end of G4 or start of the second move (which I find slightly odd, because it means where the move ends affects the behaviour at the start of the move).

        This is what I've tested so far (xval across the page 5 to 99 and yval down the page -40 to -99). So far, if a given yval value clunks, it clunks at the same xval values, being 5 to 11 and 27 to 99 inclusive. Red is a clunk, blue is no clunk, white is untested.
        62898009-3a5e-47e2-979d-1c3b14446ddc-image.png

        droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • droftartsundefined
          droftarts administrators @achrn
          last edited by

          @achrn I've created a script to try and replicate this behaviour. My delta is small, I only have a 75mm radius, so can only go to X53 Y53. However, this should cover at least some of the area where you have the clunk. My delta has a Maestro card, running 3.5.1 in standalone mode.

          ; clunk test.g
          
          var xval = 39
          var yval = 0
          
          while var.xval != 54
              set var.xval = var.xval + 1
              set var.yval = -39
          
              while var.yval != -54
                  set var.yval = var.yval - 1
                  G1 X0.00 Y{var.yval} F9000
                  G4 P100
                  G1 X{var.xval} Y{var.yval}
                  G4 P100
                  echo "X" , var.xval , "Y" , var.yval
          

          I ran this with my standard settings, but couldn't discern any particular extra noise from Z. My standard settings are not far from yours:

          M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1                                ; Configure microstepping with interpolation
          M92 X87.49 Y87.49 Z87.49 E419.00                       ; Set steps per mm (MXL belt, 18 tooth pulley)
          M566 X1200.00 Y1200.00 Z1200.00 E1200.00               ; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
          M203 X15000.00 Y15000.00 Z15000.00 E9000.00            ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
          M201 X4000.00 Y4000.00 Z4000.00 E4000.00               ; Set accelerations (mm/s^2)
          M906 X800.00 Y800.00 Z800.00 E1200.00 I30              ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
          

          One thing I noticed is that you have the jerk and acceleration set to the 'same' value. Obviously one is mm/min, the other is mm/s^2:

          M566 X1200.00 Y1200.00 Z1200.00 E300.00       ; set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
          M201 X1200 Y1200 Z1200 E3000                  ; set accelerations (mm/s^2)
          

          I set my acceleration the same as yours, and reran the test. I think I can hear extra noise from the Z motor (doesn't seem to come from the other two motors) on direction changes, that doesn't seem to be there at the faster acceleration, but I can't be sure, it could just be the linear bearings sticking a bit at the lower speed, and it seemed to be across all movement. Could you try either reducing jerk or increasing acceleration, and see if it makes a difference?

          Ian

          Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

          achrnundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • achrnundefined
            achrn @droftarts
            last edited by

            @droftarts thanks. I'm out of reach of the machine for a couple of days, so it will be a little while. I don't think you'd miss the clunk if it occurred - it's enough to make the print head visibly quiver on my printer.

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • achrnundefined
              achrn @droftarts
              last edited by

              @droftarts I've tried playing with accelerations, and there's a clear correlation, but not a helpful one (not one that lets me avoid the clunk).

              To recap: with accelerations = 1200, at Y=-65, it doesn't clunk for movements to X=12 to X=26 inclusive, but does for all other coordinates.

              I've tried various other accelerations and there is clearly a correlation. This is maximum (orange) clunk-free movement and minimum (blue) clunk-free movement against acceleration. So no clunk between the lines, but clunks outside them.
              cb6af6a7-c779-41f5-95e5-976fb085cf92-image.png
              (at A = 300 I can't detect any movement at all at the lower limit, clunking or not)

              I note that you refer to bearings sticking - I have none, the motor clunks with nothing connected, so I'm confident it's not mechanics-related (i.e. not bearings, belts, interference, etc).

              I've taken a video to show the difference between clunk and noclunk - there's no mistaking whether it clunks or not, the video is playing a move to 26, then one to 27, then one to 26, then one to 27. This is with the original 1200 acceleration where 27 clunks and 26 does not: https://vimeo.com/955477735

              ; test clunking for varying coordinates
              
              G1 X0.00 Y-65 F9000 
              G4 P100
              G1 X26 Y-65
              
              G4 S3
              
              G1 X0.00 Y-65 F9000 
              G4 P100
              G1 X27 Y-65
              
              G4 S3
              
              G1 X0.00 Y-65 F9000 
              G4 P100
              G1 X26 Y-65
              
              G4 S3
              
              G1 X0.00 Y-65 F9000 
              G4 P100
              G1 X27 Y-65
              
              G4 S3
              
              droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • Phaedruxundefined
                Phaedrux Moderator
                last edited by

                If you swap the motors around does it follow the motor or the driver?

                Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                Falkiaundefined achrnundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Falkiaundefined
                  Falkia @Phaedrux
                  last edited by

                  I remember I had a similar problem with 3.4b6. It was fixed in 3.4b7. It was something with calculations of steps for deltas.

                  https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/26309/strange-noise-from-x-axis-after-upgrading-3-3-3-4-0-b6?_=1718052458540

                  Printer: "Deltacus" Delta with 510mm bed diameter and 925mm build height. Powered by Duet 2 WiFi. Duet Smart Effector with E3D Volcano.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • achrnundefined
                    achrn @Phaedrux
                    last edited by achrn

                    @Phaedrux it's on the Z-tower motor, regardless of which physical motor or which driver that is. I've tried three different motors and four of the drivers on the 6HC board, in various combinations, whatever is defined as Z-tower motor clunks. The motors and drivers that clunk when they are Z do not clunk when they are X or Y.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • droftartsundefined
                      droftarts administrators @achrn
                      last edited by

                      @achrn I'll set up a bench test with a 6HC and generic NEMA17 motors, and test standalone and SBC, using your config.g. Do you have a config-override.g as well?

                      Ian

                      Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                      achrnundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • achrnundefined
                        achrn @droftarts
                        last edited by

                        @droftarts no, no config-override.

                        I've tried taking teh test case that clunks and rotating it 120 degrees about the global z-axis, and running taht to see if teh X tower motor then clunks. All teh moves are then teh same relative to X tower as teh clunking case were relative to Z tower. However, when I do that, nothing clunks.

                        This is my rotated test case:

                        ; test clunking for varying coordinates
                        ; rotated 120 degrees about Z
                        
                        G1 X56.292 Y32.500 F9000
                        G4 P100
                        G1 X43.292 Y55.017
                        
                        G4 S3
                        
                        G1 X56.292 Y32.500 F9000
                        G4 P100
                        G1 X42.792 Y55.883
                        
                        G4 S3
                        
                        G1 X56.292 Y32.500 F9000
                        G4 P100
                        G1 X43.292 Y55.017
                        
                        G4 S3
                        
                        G1 X56.292 Y32.500 F9000
                        G4 P100
                        G1 X42.792 Y55.883
                        
                        G4 S3
                        
                        droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Phaedruxundefined
                          Phaedrux Moderator @achrn
                          last edited by

                          @achrn said in delta Z motor goes clunk, regardless of motor or driver:

                          It's MB6HC (with toolboard) in SBC mode (Pi 4) running bookworm DuetPi and 3.5.1 firmware. It also clunks with 3.4.2 firmware and an older DuetPi.

                          Have you tried in standalone mode? Would you be able to go back through firmware versions to see if there is one were it doesn't happen? Totally understand if that's too much testing to try.

                          Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • droftartsundefined
                            droftarts administrators @achrn
                            last edited by

                            @achrn Okay, I set up a bench test with a 6HC on 3.5.1 with 3 large NEMA stepper motors, running standalone. I ran the clunking test from your post here https://forum.duet3d.com/post/340420
                            I get the rough/clunking Z move on the 4th and 8th move of that macro, just like your video. I noticed you were running input shaping, and the clunk disappears as soon as I turn this off with M593 P"none" and rerun the test. So looks like an input shaping issue. I didn't try any other changes to your config.g. I'll report it to @dc42 for investigation.

                            Ian

                            Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                            achrnundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • achrnundefined
                              achrn @droftarts
                              last edited by

                              @droftarts Aha! Excellent, thank you. I was just about to figure out how to try it standalone, following @Phaedrux 's request. I confirm that if I run mine SBC mode without input shaping I have no clunks. Since the cause has been narrowed this far and repeated by someone else, I'm not inclined to work back through old firmware versions, unless really likely to make teh difference between solving it and never resolving it, but I could try some older versions if it will make a big difference to tracking down the problem - please let me know.

                              Input shaping as the 'cause' stacks up because I only relatively recently put on a toolboard, and it's only when I got the toolboard (with the accelerometer) that I enabled input shaping. So although I hadn't made the connection that that's when clunks started, with hindsight it's very credible it was at about that time. I don't run it fast enough to really need input shaping anyway - the quality enhancement is debatable, and it's more a case of enabling it because it's there, so disabling it is not a hardship.

                              Thanks everyone for input, I'm now clunk free (though I also have a printer in pieces, so I need to spend some time re-assembling).

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                              • achrnundefined
                                achrn
                                last edited by

                                It occurred to me to check some other input shapinng:

                                M593 P"zvd" F37 clunks more softly and at different movements: in the 1200 acceleration case (which clunks under zvddd other than 12-26) it clunks for movements above xval=22

                                M593 P"zvdd" F37 clunks intermediately loudly, but at different movements: in the 1200 acceleration case (which clunks under zvddd other than 12-26) it clunks other than xval=8-24

                                So I also tried varying teh frequency

                                M593 P"zvddd" F74 and M593 P"zvddd" F18 both clunk and not-clunks differently to F37

                                droftartsundefined T3P3Tonyundefined 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • droftartsundefined
                                  droftarts administrators @achrn
                                  last edited by

                                  @achrn Thanks. I've raised an issue for this on Github: https://github.com/Duet3D/RepRapFirmware/issues/1015

                                  Ian

                                  droftarts created this issue in Duet3D/RepRapFirmware

                                  closed Input shaping on linear delta causes Z motor clunking at specific bed locations #1015

                                  Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                                  SPAXundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                  • SPAXundefined
                                    SPAX @droftarts
                                    last edited by SPAX

                                    Hello. I have a duet2Wifi Delta. Have the same problem after update on 3.5.2, 3.5.3 Release Candidate 1 problem too. When I switch off input shaping M593 P"none" all axis moving without clunk.
                                    Do you have solve for this bug?

                                    dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • dc42undefined
                                      dc42 administrators @SPAX
                                      last edited by

                                      @SPAX thanks for your report.

                                      TBH although it appears that there is a bug in this area, we might not fix it for the following reasons:

                                      • Input shaping has been completely reimplemented 3.6 than in 3.5 and works much better. We have no reports of a similar bug in 3.6.
                                      • It's likely that tracking this bug down would require substantial effort, which ultimately would be wasted because the 3.6 code is completely different.
                                      • Delta printers typically have little or no need for input shaping because their resonant frequencies tend to be higher.

                                      Of course, if anyone else tracks this down and supplies a fix that we can validate, we will gladly include it in a future 3.5.x release.

                                      If you are brave enough then I suggest you try RRF 3.6.0-alpha.5 on your machine. Or you can wait for 3.6.0-beta.1 which I estimate is 2 weeks away.

                                      Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                      Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                      http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                      SPAXundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • SPAXundefined
                                        SPAX @dc42
                                        last edited by

                                        @dc42 Hello!
                                        I updated firmware to 3.5.4 and have same problem still...

                                        droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • droftartsundefined
                                          droftarts administrators @SPAX
                                          last edited by

                                          @SPAX Please try RRF 3.6.0-beta.2: https://github.com/Duet3D/RepRapFirmware/releases/tag/3.6.0-beta.2

                                          Ian

                                          Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • T3P3Tonyundefined
                                            T3P3Tony administrators @achrn
                                            last edited by

                                            @achrn @SPAX

                                            Please try 3.6Beta3 to confirm if the issues is resolved or not

                                            https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/37289/software-version-3-6-0-beta-3-now-available

                                            www.duet3d.com

                                            achrnundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                            • First post
                                              Last post
                                            Unless otherwise noted, all forum content is licensed under CC-BY-SA