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Jerky movements, again

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  • undefined
    roboduet
    last edited by 8 Nov 2016, 23:12

    Hello, I'm using latest release:

    [[language]]
    Firmware Name: 	RepRapFirmware for Duet WiFi
    Firmware Electronics: 	Duet WiFi 1.0
    Firmware Version: 	1.16 (2016-11-08)
    WiFi Server Version: 	1.03 (ch fork)
    Web Interface Version: 	1.13
    
    

    And experiencing issues very close to (but not the same) that described in my old topic on reprap forums: http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?178,546995

    Circles are printed with audible clicks (also this clicks sensible then you put your finger on moving tower caret). Few clicks per second (I don't know exact value, about 3-7 per second). I hear clicks for both first layer brim/skirt and main perimeters.

    I'm using Duet WiFi beta board, 12V power supply (LED PSU, 30A), 200 steps/rev steppers and the following movement settings:

    [[language]]
    M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1    			; Set 16x microstepping with interpolation
    M92 X100 Y100 Z100					; Set axis steps/mm
    M201 X3000 Y3000 Z3000 E3000		; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
    M203 X12000 Y12000 Z12000 E4200		; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
    M566 X600 Y600 Z600 E600		; Maximum instant speed changes mm/minute
    
    

    Maximum jerk speed does not change nothing (I have tried M566 X6000 Y6000 Z6000 E6000 also without success).

    Calibration settings at this moment is:

    [[language]]
    M665 R105.83 L214.35 H239.30 B75.00 X-0.42 Y-0.89 Z0.00
    M666 X1.42 Y-1.13 Z-0.28
    
    

    I have tried different speeds (30-50-100 mm/second).

    M122 command output after print:

    [[language]]
    MaxReps: 5, StepErrors: 0, MaxWait: 0ms, Underruns: 0, 0
    
    

    I have tried different slicers (Slic3r, S3D) - also without success.

    I have tried to disable heated bed (main power consumer) - without success.

    This happens with almost every circular (curved) shapes, test OpenSCAD code for model I printed:

    [[language]]
    cylinder(r1 = 35, r2 = 20, h = 50, $fn = 1024);
    
    

    Example layer code from S3D:

    [[language]]
    G1 X10.146 Y-32.739 Z1.700 E0.0140
    G1 X10.947 Y-32.480 Z1.701 E0.0140
    G1 X11.741 Y-32.201 Z1.701 E0.0140
    G1 X12.528 Y-31.903 Z1.702 E0.0140
    G1 X13.307 Y-31.587 Z1.702 E0.0140
    G1 X14.078 Y-31.250 Z1.702 E0.0140
    G1 X14.840 Y-30.896 Z1.703 E0.0140
    G1 X15.594 Y-30.522 Z1.703 E0.0140
    G1 X16.338 Y-30.130 Z1.704 E0.0140
    G1 X17.073 Y-29.720 Z1.704 E0.0140
    G1 X17.797 Y-29.292 Z1.704 E0.0140
    G1 X18.511 Y-28.846 Z1.705 E0.0140
    G1 X19.213 Y-28.384 Z1.705 E0.0140
    G1 X19.904 Y-27.904 Z1.705 E0.0140
    G1 X20.583 Y-27.407 Z1.706 E0.0140
    G1 X21.249 Y-26.893 Z1.706 E0.0140
    G1 X21.902 Y-26.364 Z1.707 E0.0140
    G1 X22.543 Y-25.818 Z1.707 E0.0140
    G1 X23.170 Y-25.257 Z1.707 E0.0140
    G1 X23.783 Y-24.681 Z1.708 E0.0140
    G1 X24.381 Y-24.090 Z1.708 E0.0140
    G1 X24.965 Y-23.484 Z1.709 E0.0140
    G1 X25.534 Y-22.865 Z1.709 E0.0140
    G1 X26.088 Y-22.231 Z1.709 E0.0140
    G1 X26.625 Y-21.584 Z1.710 E0.0140
    G1 X27.147 Y-20.924 Z1.710 E0.0140
    G1 X27.652 Y-20.252 Z1.711 E0.0140
    
    

    And from Slic3r:

    [[language]]
    G1 X-34.040 Y-10.097 E0.03229
    G1 X-33.713 Y-11.138 E0.03239
    G1 X-33.282 Y-12.369 E0.03873
    G1 X-32.886 Y-13.384 E0.03235
    G1 X-32.459 Y-14.389 E0.03242
    G1 X-32.004 Y-15.376 E0.03227
    G1 X-31.516 Y-16.352 E0.03239
    G1 X-30.999 Y-17.312 E0.03237
    G1 X-30.454 Y-18.254 E0.03232
    G1 X-29.880 Y-19.179 E0.03233
    G1 X-29.278 Y-20.086 E0.03232
    G1 X-28.648 Y-20.975 E0.03237
    G1 X-27.990 Y-21.845 E0.03236
    G1 X-27.307 Y-22.693 E0.03235
    G1 X-26.599 Y-23.519 E0.03231
    G1 X-25.864 Y-24.325 E0.03237
    G1 X-25.107 Y-25.106 E0.03230
    G1 X-24.324 Y-25.865 E0.03239
    G1 X-23.519 Y-26.599 E0.03233
    G1 X-22.693 Y-27.307 E0.03232
    G1 X-21.844 Y-27.991 E0.03238
    G1 X-20.974 Y-28.648 E0.03236
    G1 X-19.908 Y-29.399 E0.03872
    G1 X-18.997 Y-29.996 E0.03234
    G1 X-18.066 Y-30.566 E0.03241
    G1 X-17.119 Y-31.106 E0.03237
    G1 X-16.157 Y-31.616 E0.03233
    G1 X-15.181 Y-32.097 E0.03231
    G1 X-14.188 Y-32.548 E0.03236
    G1 X-13.183 Y-32.967 E0.03235
    G1 X-12.167 Y-33.356 E0.03228
    G1 X-11.137 Y-33.714 E0.03240
    
    

    This is happens not only in synthetic tests but also on real models too.

    The only difference (compared to previous bug described at http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?178,546995 ) is much less visible patterns on model surface and clicks with higher frequency.

    I have seen topics about Duet jerky movements both here and on reprap forums, but not sure that this is the same issue.

    Anyone else experiencing such problems?

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    • undefined
      roboduet
      last edited by 11 Sept 2016, 14:50 9 Nov 2016, 14:27

      Usually I'm using this setting:

      [[language]]
      M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1 
      
      

      I have tried today this setting:

      [[language]]
      M350 X256 Y256 Z256 E256 I0
      
      

      Print was much quieter and without extraneous sounds and clicks. Printed part surface is also much cleaner.

      Also I have tried to change M350 settings during printing (yes, I know that I'm doing not in right way) and printer was completely freezed (I tried two times, both with the same results). DWC shows me something like "no more HTTP sessions available". The only way to restore operation was power off and power on again.

      Update:

      This setting also gives quiet printing without audible clicks:

      [[language]]
      M350 X128 Y128 Z128 E16 I0
      
      

      And then I using this setting clicks also very loud:

      [[language]]
      M350 X8 Y8 Z8 E16 I0
      
      
      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • undefined
        T3P3Tony administrators
        last edited by 9 Nov 2016, 15:42

        Thanks for the feedback I need to try to see if there is a difference between:

        M350 X16 I1 and M350 X256 I0 as they both should produce 256 microstepping.

        The M350 X8 I0 is expected to be loud as that is 8 microstepping with no interpolation.

        www.duet3d.com

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • undefined
          roboduet
          last edited by 9 Nov 2016, 16:14

          1/256 microstepping is very quiet for me, but Duet is usable only with low speeds due to high step rate.

          Also documentation isn't very clear about interpolation modes. Seems like only 1/16 microstepping mode is able to use interpolation? Or I'm not right?

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • undefined
            T3P3Tony administrators
            last edited by 9 Nov 2016, 16:55

            I have not tested with interpolation on less than 1/16 microstepping.

            What I need to test when I get a chance is the difference between 1/256 microstepping and 1/16 microstepping with interpolation because they should be the same. The interpolation should be dividing each 1/16 microstep up into 16 further microsteps.

            www.duet3d.com

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • undefined
              roboduet
              last edited by 21 Nov 2016, 11:04

              No updates? Maybe I can help testing/diagnosing this issue?

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • undefined
                roboduet
                last edited by 27 Nov 2016, 09:55

                It seems that everyone (including David and Tony) ignores me, but I still continue my research.

                I just prepared test g-code that you can run without printing something. Code just moves effector around 100 mm circle:

                [[language]]
                T0
                G21 ; set units to millimeters
                G90 ; use absolute coordinates
                M83 ; use relative distances for extrusion
                G1 Z10.300 F4800.000
                G1 X-49.744 Y1.647 F960.000
                G1 X-49.771 Y-0.000
                G1 X-49.743 Y-1.672
                G1 X-49.659 Y-3.342
                G1 X-49.519 Y-5.009
                G1 X-49.323 Y-6.670
                G1 X-49.071 Y-8.323
                G1 X-48.763 Y-9.967
                G1 X-48.401 Y-11.599
                G1 X-47.984 Y-13.219
                G1 X-47.513 Y-14.824
                G1 X-46.988 Y-16.411
                G1 X-46.410 Y-17.981
                G1 X-45.780 Y-19.530
                G1 X-45.098 Y-21.057
                G1 X-44.365 Y-22.560
                G1 X-43.582 Y-24.038
                G1 X-42.750 Y-25.489
                G1 X-41.870 Y-26.910
                G1 X-40.928 Y-28.322
                G1 X-39.968 Y-29.661
                G1 X-38.949 Y-30.987
                G1 X-37.886 Y-32.279
                G1 X-36.781 Y-33.533
                G1 X-35.633 Y-34.750
                G1 X-34.446 Y-35.928
                G1 X-33.219 Y-37.065
                G1 X-31.956 Y-38.160
                G1 X-30.656 Y-39.212
                G1 X-29.321 Y-40.220
                G1 X-27.953 Y-41.182
                G1 X-26.554 Y-42.098
                G1 X-25.125 Y-42.966
                G1 X-23.667 Y-43.786
                G1 X-22.183 Y-44.557
                G1 X-20.674 Y-45.277
                G1 X-19.141 Y-45.946
                G1 X-17.587 Y-46.563
                G1 X-15.989 Y-47.136
                G1 X-14.420 Y-47.639
                G1 X-12.812 Y-48.097
                G1 X-11.189 Y-48.500
                G1 X-9.553 Y-48.849
                G1 X-7.907 Y-49.142
                G1 X-6.252 Y-49.380
                G1 X-4.589 Y-49.563
                G1 X-2.922 Y-49.689
                G1 X-1.251 Y-49.759
                G1 X0.447 Y-49.773
                G1 X2.093 Y-49.731
                G1 X3.763 Y-49.633 F960.000
                G1 X5.428 Y-49.479
                G1 X7.112 Y-49.264
                G1 X8.738 Y-49.003
                G1 X10.380 Y-48.681
                G1 X12.009 Y-48.305
                G1 X13.625 Y-47.875
                G1 X15.226 Y-47.390
                G1 X16.809 Y-46.852
                G1 X18.374 Y-46.261
                G1 X19.917 Y-45.618
                G1 X21.439 Y-44.923
                G1 X22.936 Y-44.178
                G1 X24.407 Y-43.382
                G1 X25.850 Y-42.538
                G1 X27.265 Y-41.646
                G1 X28.648 Y-40.707
                G1 X30.000 Y-39.721
                G1 X31.317 Y-38.691
                G1 X32.599 Y-37.617
                G1 X33.863 Y-36.484
                G1 X35.052 Y-35.344
                G1 X36.219 Y-34.146
                G1 X37.362 Y-32.891
                G1 X38.430 Y-31.637
                G1 X39.471 Y-30.329
                G1 X40.468 Y-28.986
                G1 X41.419 Y-27.610
                G1 X42.323 Y-26.203
                G1 X43.179 Y-24.767
                G1 X43.987 Y-23.302
                G1 X44.745 Y-21.812
                G1 X45.453 Y-20.296
                G1 X46.118 Y-18.735
                G1 X46.713 Y-17.199
                G1 X47.264 Y-15.620
                G1 X47.762 Y-14.023
                G1 X48.206 Y-12.411
                G1 X48.596 Y-10.785
                G1 X48.931 Y-9.146
                G1 X49.211 Y-7.497
                G1 X49.435 Y-5.840
                G1 X49.603 Y-4.176
                G1 X49.715 Y-2.508
                G1 X49.771 Y-0.836
                G1 X49.771 Y0.836
                G1 X49.715 Y2.508
                G1 X49.603 Y4.176
                G1 X49.435 Y5.840
                G1 X49.211 Y7.497
                G1 X48.931 Y9.146
                G1 X48.596 Y10.785
                G1 X48.206 Y12.411
                G1 X47.762 Y14.023
                G1 X47.264 Y15.620
                G1 X46.713 Y17.199
                G1 X46.109 Y18.758
                G1 X45.453 Y20.296
                G1 X44.745 Y21.812
                G1 X43.987 Y23.302
                G1 X43.179 Y24.767
                G1 X42.323 Y26.203
                G1 X41.419 Y27.610
                G1 X40.468 Y28.986
                G1 X39.471 Y30.329
                G1 X38.430 Y31.637
                G1 X37.346 Y32.911
                G1 X36.219 Y34.146
                G1 X35.052 Y35.344
                G1 X33.845 Y36.501
                G1 X32.599 Y37.617
                G1 X31.317 Y38.691
                G1 X30.000 Y39.721
                G1 X28.648 Y40.707
                G1 X27.265 Y41.646
                G1 X25.850 Y42.538
                G1 X24.407 Y43.382
                G1 X22.936 Y44.178
                G1 X21.439 Y44.923
                G1 X19.917 Y45.618
                G1 X18.374 Y46.261
                G1 X16.809 Y46.852
                G1 X15.226 Y47.390
                G1 X13.625 Y47.875
                G1 X12.009 Y48.305
                G1 X10.380 Y48.681
                G1 X8.714 Y49.007
                G1 X7.087 Y49.268
                G1 X5.428 Y49.479
                G1 X3.763 Y49.633
                G1 X2.093 Y49.731
                G1 X0.422 Y49.773
                G1 X-1.251 Y49.759
                G1 X-2.922 Y49.689
                G1 X-4.589 Y49.563
                G1 X-6.252 Y49.380
                G1 X-7.907 Y49.142
                G1 X-9.553 Y48.849
                G1 X-11.189 Y48.500
                G1 X-12.812 Y48.097
                G1 X-14.420 Y47.639
                G1 X-16.013 Y47.128
                G1 X-17.587 Y46.563
                G1 X-19.141 Y45.946
                G1 X-20.674 Y45.277
                G1 X-22.205 Y44.545
                G1 X-23.667 Y43.786
                G1 X-25.125 Y42.966
                G1 X-26.575 Y42.084
                G1 X-27.953 Y41.182
                G1 X-29.321 Y40.220
                G1 X-30.656 Y39.212
                G1 X-31.956 Y38.160
                G1 X-33.219 Y37.065
                G1 X-34.464 Y35.910
                G1 X-35.633 Y34.750
                G1 X-36.781 Y33.533
                G1 X-37.886 Y32.279
                G1 X-38.949 Y30.987
                G1 X-39.968 Y29.661
                G1 X-40.942 Y28.302
                G1 X-41.870 Y26.910
                G1 X-42.750 Y25.489
                G1 X-43.594 Y24.016
                G1 X-44.365 Y22.560
                G1 X-45.098 Y21.057
                G1 X-45.780 Y19.530
                G1 X-46.410 Y17.981
                G1 X-46.988 Y16.411
                G1 X-47.513 Y14.824
                G1 X-47.984 Y13.219
                G1 X-48.406 Y11.575
                G1 X-48.763 Y9.967
                G1 X-49.071 Y8.323
                G1 X-49.326 Y6.645
                G1 X-49.519 Y5.009
                G1 X-49.659 Y3.342
                G1 X-49.699 Y2.542
                
                

                This code produces jerky movements with [c]M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1[/c] command (1/16 microstepping with interpolation) and very smooth movements with [c]M350 X256 Y256 Z256 E16 I1[/c]

                I can record video to prove my words.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • dc42undefined
                  dc42 administrators
                  last edited by 27 Nov 2016, 18:52

                  Thanks for your example. My printers are out of action until my office refurbishment is complete, but I'll try it out when I can. Feel free to remind me on Wednesday if you don't get a response before then.

                  Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                  Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                  http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • botundefined
                    bot
                    last edited by 27 Nov 2016, 18:55

                    What happens when you do the exact same gcode with M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I0 ?

                    *not actually a robot

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • dc42undefined
                      dc42 administrators
                      last edited by 27 Nov 2016, 19:03

                      One other question: what motor current have you set in your M906 command?

                      Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                      Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                      http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • undefined
                        roboduet
                        last edited by 27 Nov 2016, 21:05

                        @bot:

                        What happens when you do the exact same gcode with M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I0 ?

                        The same thing, but motors are very loud in this mode (relative to interpolated I1), so clicking noise is less audible over steppers noise.

                        @dc42:

                        One other question: what motor current have you set in your M906 command?

                        Thank you, now I'm not alone 🙂

                        I'm using [c]M906 X1500 Y1500 Z1500 E1000 I60[/c] with Wantai 42BYGHW811 motors. 200 steps/rev, 2.5A rated current, 1.8 mH phase inductance according to datasheet. Also I'm using 12V 30A LED power supply.

                        I have tried also 1.9 A and 1.0 A motor current, nothing changed.

                        Also I recorded both videos, my phone touches one of delta towers to amplify possible noise. I hope you can listen difference.
                        UPD: click frequency on first video is about 5-10 hertz. Clicks appear while effector moves around circle. But there is no clicks while effector goes down or while straight movement (from center to start of circle).

                        https://youtu.be/goGnxBhvC18
                        https://youtu.be/aJOKRfh4D1c

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • undefined
                          roboduet
                          last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 12:26

                          Yet another video, I put my phone directly on moving caret to record better sound.

                          https://youtu.be/ljaSBse_A9g

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • deckingmanundefined
                            deckingman
                            last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 13:02

                            Seems like I need to go to Specsavers. What are we supposed to be looking at? Have you actually tried printing anything and if so, is the printed object misshapen?

                            Ian
                            https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                            https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • undefined
                              roboduet
                              last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 13:08

                              I'm just want to say that something wrong : ) I'm not experiencing any real problems with printing using Duet WiFi, I'm happy Duet WiFi owner, but this is something abnormal.

                              Yes, this clicking pattern is slightly visible on printed objects, but I'm unable take good quality photo to show this. And this almost does not affect print quality.

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • deckingmanundefined
                                deckingman
                                last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 15:21

                                I can't see any difference in the movement between the first two videos but maybe that's because I'm an old guy who wears glasses. You seem to be trying to make videos that record the sound, so are you saying that it sounds different?

                                Ian
                                https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                                https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • undefined
                                  lignumaqua
                                  last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 15:29

                                  I ran roboduet's file on my Rostock Mx V2 and can confirm that there is a different sound as he describes. You can definitely hear a tick which might line up with the interpolation point. Both 128 and 256 microstep without interpolation are smooth and don't have the tick. There is perhaps a discontinuity at some point in the interpolation. I couldn’t hear this when running the same test on my CoreXY, so perhaps it's specific to deltas?

                                  However, I also ran print tests and cannot see any difference in the results! So, to me at least, this appears to be of academic interest only.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • undefined
                                    roboduet
                                    last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 15:36

                                    @deckingman:

                                    I can't see any difference in the movement between the first two videos but maybe that's because I'm an old guy who wears glasses. You seem to be trying to make videos that record the sound, so are you saying that it sounds different?

                                    Yes, that's what I want to say. English is not my native language so sometimes I cannot say what I want in few words so other people can understand me.

                                    Can you hear clicking (5-10 times per second) sound on last video with black picture? This clicks are felt, if I touch a finger to the carriage. This feels like tower caret stops moving for few milliseconds and then starts moving again.

                                    But there is no any clicks or other sounds then I change microstepping to 1/256. Everything else is the same - maximum jerk settings, accelerations, speed, motor currents and so on.

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • undefined
                                      roboduet
                                      last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 15:43

                                      @lignumaqua:

                                      I ran roboduet's file on my Rostock Mx V2 and can confirm that there is a different sound as he describes.
                                      However, I also ran print tests and cannot see any difference in the results! So, to me at least, this appears to be of academic interest only.

                                      Thank you very much! At least this is confirmed now by other people too.

                                      As about differences in print quality - I can see slight differences in external surface, but I'm sure this is absolutely not a problem for me. I can try to find macro photo friendly plastic and right lighting to take photo with differences. Also I'm not sure what is affecting print quality - true 1/256 microstepping instead of interpolated 1/16 or this clicking issue.

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • dc42undefined
                                        dc42 administrators
                                        last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 21:30

                                        The interpolation is only completely accurate when the carriages are moving at constant speed, which is rarely the case on a delta printer. So my guess is that the clicking noises are produced when the drive gets the interpolation wrong, perhaps when a carriage reverses direction in the middle of a move. Dynamically varying microstepping will solve that, when I get round to implementing it.

                                        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • undefined
                                          roboduet
                                          last edited by 28 Nov 2016, 21:53

                                          I hear this clicking sounds with interpolation disabled at 1/16 microstepping.

                                          Also seems like I found bug, printer completely freezes (including ESP8266 web server code) then I executing this commands: [c]G28[/c] to home printer, [c]M350 X16 Y16 Z16 I0[/c] to disable interpolation (interpolation enabled in config) and then start printing file without (!) homing after executing M350 command. This is reproducible every time I enter this commands.

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