Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything)
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I think it boils down to CE marking being left to business to look after themselves and until an accident has happened being trusted to have done the work.
Doing it properly it would cost me in the order of £100-200 per standard (maybe six or eight of them) to give me an idea of what I can do to prove compliance with the appropriate regulations and have to documentation in place to support a self issued CE certificate. Ontop of that collecting certificates of incorperation for all my components to prove they are not made with toxins and carconegens would take a monumental effort and rule out many aliexpress and ebay like cheap purchases pushing my priduct cost up. But less scrupulous could collects a few CE certificates from known brands, copy them and make a decent effort at the build making sure wiring CSAs and colours are correct, fusing and shielding present and they may never have to produce the documentation.
I think the only way to address this is random spot checks and product audits on CE certification documentation funded by heafty fines and partly by upper tier corperation taxes.
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@fcwilt said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
Is it ironic that while having fun with these attempts at translation we ourselves are having trouble with our vises having vices?
Frederick
Only American English vises can have vices. British English vices can indeed have vices.
Out of curiosity, are there any German words with the same spelling that can have completely different meanings?
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@deckingman said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
Out of curiosity, are there any German words with the same spelling that can have completely different meanings?
Of course there are many. Like the german word Gericht means both Meal and Court of Law.
The Biggest problem i had was with Speed and Velocity. They both translate to the same word in german.
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Ah, going from 70um to 35um makes sense to save, sounded more like putting work into reducing the area of a ground plane which didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. 70um does indeed drive up the cost.
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@veti said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
Of course there are many. Like the german word Gericht means both Meal and Court of Law.
The Biggest problem i had was with Speed and Velocity. They both translate to the same word in german.
Well they mean almost exactly the same thing in English and one is often used in place of another. The only difference is that velocity is a vector so it's the speed (or rate of change of position) in one direction. Whereas speed can be applied to circular motion where the direction is constantly changing, or indeed anything that can happen in a period of time. So velocity is a type of speed and is always measured in m/s. Whereas speed can be m/s but can also be revolutions per minute for something that is revolving, or words per minute for typing of talking. Anything that can happen in a unit of time can have speed but only linear motion can have velocity. Is there no German equivalent?
Edit. Actually, it gets a bit more complicated than that because it is possible to have angular velocity but I need more Caffeine before we get into that..
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I'm pretty sure anyone hanging around here has bought a fair share of Chinese imports, and has likely had both good and bad experiences with them.
I've also sent my share of money into the Asian market, so I get it.
But I definitely believe in supporting the original designers when I can, or when it matters. That said, my first I3 printer was definitely not an original, same with my Makerbot clone printer. They were both cheap Chinese clones, because that was the money that I could invest in the printer at the time. I'd have rather bought an original in both cases, and for the first would definitely have had a better product (That I3 clone was really crappy) but I'd always intended to design and build my own.
I was able to buy genuine Duet boards, and genuine Precision Piezo boards, and am happy to support the development of these products.
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i bought an Anet A8 knowing full well that i had to invest a lot of time into to make it work and safe.
But i did that for the learning experience.I have also bought a fair share of stuff from the Asian market after i realized that a lot of the stuff that is being sold for 3d printers on Amazon is the same.
However there are Sellers where you generally get good quality products. like Robotdigg, Trianglelab and to some extend FYSETC.
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I did fall for the temptation to order a $55(!!) FYSETC Maestro clone on the recent sale, and measuring the difference in thickness on the corner where there is no copper, and the adjacent fill the difference is pretty much 70um, so 35um/1oz each side.
Can stick it in the Up Mini 2 where the bed is now mains powered, motors at 400mA and 24v hotend it should be fine. But its definitively something worth considering for more heavy duty applications.
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@veti said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
The Biggest problem i had was with Speed and Velocity. They both translate to the same word in german.
Also worth mentioning are "pitch" and "lead" which also translate to the same word in German "Steigung". But that's another one where the English meanings are also very close.
Manuel
Duet 3 6HC (v0.6) with RPi 4B on a custom Cartesian
with probably always latest firmware/DWC (incl. betas or self-compiled)
My Tool Collection -
@wilriker said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
@veti said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
The Biggest problem i had was with Speed and Velocity. They both translate to the same word in german.
Also worth mentioning are "pitch" and "lead" which also translate to the same word in German "Steigung". But that's another one where the English meanings are also very close.
Now I'm going to confuse you even more because "pitch" and "lead" can be totally different. One can "lead" a horse which basically means hold it's reins and walk in front of it, and there is the metal "lead" (chemical symbol Pb) but that is pronounced "led" which is the past tense of "lead" as in the horse example above. Also you can "pitch" a tent (put it up), or play ball games on a "pitch", and helicopters gain height by increasing the "pitch" (the angle) of the rotor blades, musical notes can have high pitch or low pitch. So "pitch and "lead" can be many things but when applied to screw threads, they can be the same if that thread is a single start thread but different if it is a multi-start thread.
It's no wonder that the Chinese can mangle instructions so badly. Which brings me nicely back to the topic I started.
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English, though tough, can be understood through thorough thought.
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@phaedrux said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
English, though tough, can be understood through thorough thought.
Ok, now you twisted my tongue!
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Just on the Clone FuD, did first prints on 1oz copper Maestro clone. No cooling, 800mA X,Y&E0, 1200mA 2xZ. 12V 10A bed, 12v, 4A hotend.
After two hours, hottest area is around Z stepper driver. 52C. When idle, 30% motor current, the W500 seems to be the hottest area with its 37C. Pretty sure at moderate currents and with some forced air this will be fine desipte the shortcut in copper thickness. Z stepper lower left, Ethernet upper right.
"Full" load
"Idle"
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Just found this on fleabay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Duet-2-Maestro-Clone-Board-Motherboard-32-Bit-TMC2224-3D-Printer-Prusa-I3-UK/401764968426?hash=item5d8b0ee7ea:g:2lMAAOSwRW9c1Zn1Same price as an original board!
Personally I think it is shocking that Duet3D have to support clones.
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What makes you say they have to support clones? Thats not even remotely true, you are completely up shit creek without a paddle if something happens to your clone.
The firmware on the other hand, they choose to support the free and open source firmware because it benefits them regardless of the hardware you run it on, you can buy the genuine board, you can build your own, or you can gamble on dodgy clone.
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@bearer said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
What makes you say they have to support clones? Thats not even remotely true...................,
Well actually it is kind of true. Admittedly the Duet team are not obliged to support clones but it it is they who have invested the time and effort into putting all the documentation together, which the clone manufacturers and sellers can leverage at no cost to themselves.
There have been a number of people who have bought clones and then post on these forums asking for advice on how to configure them or how to troubleshoot a problem. Personally, I feel they should go back to the seller for that advice so I won't spend any time trying to help them. But those are the ones who admit to buying a clone - there must be many more who won't admit it but still turn to these forums for advice, which in itself is support that is provided by someone other than the clone manufacturer or seller.
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But thats the firmware, not the cloned hardware. I understand your point, but I also think the Duet team were fully aware of the implications before releasing both the hardware and software as open source, and see the benefits as greater than the potential drawbacks?
Another point is Duet3d aren't actually selling boards to the end user in any case so they clearly see it as not worth it to deal with low volume sales and would rather outsource the work and the profit to resellers who as you put it, leverage the free firmware at no cost to themselves? -
@bearer I take you point but I'm old fashioned enough to think that people have a moral obligation to buy the genuine hardware, because it is the profit from sales of that hardware which funds the development of the free and open source firmware that everyone wants to use.
Oh and Duet do indeed to sell their products directly to the end user. https://www.duet3d.com/ Where did you get the idea that they don't?
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@deckingman said in Another reason why not to by a clone (of anything):
Where did you get the idea that they don't?
Maybe i missread the holiday thing, idk. Mixed up escher3d.com which sells ir probes and paneldue, they have a notice of having changed the direct sales policy.
Anyways, I would think Duet3d makes more off OEM sales than through direkt marketing and resellers. And I'm not saying you should buy a clone, most of the clones are so close in price it makes very little sense to forfeit the warranty and support. On the other hand I wouldn't have rebuilt the 2nd printer with a Duet if not for a $55 Maestro board, and that results in the RepRap Configurator having one less bug - its not all black and white.
I just wanted to put an illustration to the claims of inferior cooling due to skimping on copper weight; its clearly an issue, but with moderate loads and/or cooling it'll work just fine.
