Network connection problems

bot

@RCarlyle:

My office (at a large company you've heard of) does regular audits and scans to remove unauthorized access points, and won't allow anything but IT-managed devices to connect to the official wifi. It's all done via security certificates… I wouldn't know how to connect a device to the wifi myself if I wanted to. I wouldn't be able to use the Duet Wifi there without one of the non-wifi control options. I'd imagine that's fairly common in the corporate and government world.

In all the places I've worked with rules like this, you can't connect unapproved ethernet devices either.

If there is a wired connection, the printer can be kept off the real network and only used on a separate 3d printer network, with the PCs that slice and monitor, but without connecting to any other sensitive network.

With wifi, the same can be achieved but while broadcasting all the data. You keep thinking that a) this is a consumer application we're worried about and b) we're connecting everything to the same network we do our top-secret banking on…. no.

I don't understand why you keep trying to defend strawman scenarios when there is a perfectly legitimate need for a duet with no wifi. A consumer with an i3 in their basement? Yeah, who cares. The cases where it matters are fringe cases, and they are few and far between. This is why I'm willing to pay a premium for a wired version.

Also, the encryption is all fine and dandy, but as with all encryption standards, their weakest point is the human element. In the environments I'm concerned with, social engineering/espionage would be a real possibility, and much more efficient than a brute force cracking attempt. By requiring physical access, knowing a simple password and intercepting the broadcast would not be enough.

elmoret

@bot:

With wifi, the same can be achieved but while broadcasting all the data. You keep thinking that a) this is a consumer application we're worried about and b) we're connecting everything to the same network we do our top-secret banking on…. no.

No, I don't "keep thinking that". I've given examples of how WPA2-AES meets standards for both medical and military/DoD use. What other "fringe case" are you considering?

@bot:

Also, the encryption is all fine and dandy, but as with all encryption standards, their weakest point is the human element. In the environments I'm concerned with, social engineering/espionage would be a real possibility, and much more efficient than a brute force cracking attempt. By requiring physical access, knowing a simple password and intercepting the broadcast would not be enough.

Why would the password be allowed to be simple?

Espionage of the wifi password is a "real possibility", but espionage of the STL isn't?

Wifi only broadcasts a couple hundred feet indoors. If you're that close to a printer in a military building, you've already been cleared by security.

All of this is a moot point with RCarlyle's suggestion anyway.

W3DRK

There sure is an awful lot of speculation going on in this wired vs WiFi argument when it comes to security. For what it's worth, I manage my companies' global WiFi infrastructure and in my opinion any modern WiFi deployment can be just as secure as your average Ethernet port if not more so. In addition to run-of-the-mill WPA, any commercial access point will support 802.1x EAP certificates (sometimes even issued in the form of physical smart cards providided after gaining security clearance) as well as putting every client on their own NAT segment so they can't even see or communicate with other clients connected to the same WiFi network. Small business/commercial WiFi security has become INCREDIBLY robust in recent years and if deployed by someone who knows what their doing should be the least of anyone's worries.

And please pardon any typos, I typed this on my cell phone…

bot

My only experience comes from surveillance, where there was absolutely no wifi anything allowed as part of the network attached to sensitive information. I don't have a deep knowledge of the technical aspects, only of the operational requirements of certain security-sensitive environments.

The distance traveled through a building is certainly a valid defense against attack, but perhaps printers are not being deployed in buildings, but tents.

curieos

You're arguing the most obscure edge case type stuff I've ever seen. Who's deploying a printer in a tent? Why would someone be so concerned with cracking into a secure network to get at a 3d printer when theres all the other stuff thats probably at least 10X more interesting? What world are you living in where thats something someone would be interested in doing?

Also, why are you arguing against the duet having wifi? T3P3 has already expressed interest in making a wired duet, like a potentially drop in replacement for the ESP module. Theres already been 2 wired Duets, just be patient.

bot

Really sorry to have expressed an opinion.

I have 2 wifi's on the way, and a third in a close relative's machine as well… but I simply would have preferred to not have to rely on Wifi. What;s the big deal about that? Why am I all of a sudden an asshole for having concerns?

curieos

People addressed your concerns with pretty satisfactory answers (and sources), they offered solutions to your issues, and yet you continued to argue the same points, or you moved to increasingly more obscure scenarios. You went from expressing valid concerns to grasping for straws as to why wifi is the worst thing and its probably going to abduct your kids when you're not looking. Its starting to feel like US Bottle Rockets on the SeeMe forums again, just continuing on and on for no reason. You're not an asshole bot, I'm just tired of you beating the horse.

bot

My main concern is not nearly the security issue… it was not I who was beating the dead horse. The issue of wifi is not dead, it's a real issue. I make printers for professional use, and sometimes my clients want to buy the printers. I want to be able to offer them wired ethernet, end of story. If a client requires ethernet, they won't also enjoy the features of the duet wifi I guess, like the higher current rating on steppers. I merely entertained the discussion about security concerns because, to me, that sort of thing is interesting.

A Former User

Pronterface:

[[language]]
>>> M552 S1
SENDING:M552 S1
WiFi server starting up
DuetWiFiServer version 1.03 (ch fork)
Flash size 4194304, free RAM 32840 bytes, WiFi Vcc 3.04V, host name: duetwifi, reset reason: Turned on by main processor
WiFi server connected to access point XXXXXXX, IP=XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX, signal strength=-89dBm

Pinging works. However when I try to access the DWC I get the following crash:

[[language]]
DuetWiFiServer version 1.03 (ch fork)
Flash size 4194304, free RAM 32840 bytes, WiFi Vcc 3.03V, host name: duetwifi, reset reason: Exception
WiFi server connected to access point XXXXXXX, IP=XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX, signal strength=-89dBm

M122 didn't give much information. It could be the weak signal strength. I have no other choice…
+1 for DuetWifi AP mode.

It's a pity I still have severe wifi issues. IMHO that's the weakest part of the DuetWifi.
Thanks for any help!

dc42

Yes -89dbm is a very weak signal. One option is to install a WiFi repeater closer to the Duet than your router is. Depending on what router you have already, another option may be to get a better router, especially if your existing one doesn't have MIMO capability.

We recognise that for a minority of users, wired Ethernet is preferable to WiFi. I have spent much of today working on the firmware for the forthcoming Duet Ethernet.

lolorc

would it be possible to upgrade from wifi to ethernet ? like just replacing the esp module by an ethernet module ?

dc42

The prototype I am working with is a converted Duet WiFi. So If our plans work out as we hope, it should be possibe to convert a blue production Duet WiFi board to Ethernet. You would need a hot air desoldering too to remove the WiFi module.

A Former User

That's great news!
Would a access point mode work for the DuetWiFi if more people needed it?

I already tried some kind of repeater configuration by using an old router, which worked very well with other wifi devices. With the Duet WiFi I get the same behaviour I described above (only pinging works).

dc42

Yes we're planning to support running the Duet WiFi in access point mode.

A Former User

I took my plain DuetWifi board, a usb cable and a laptop to a brand new access point.
The signal strength is around -40dBm.
Same problem again.

Did you see my VCC reading? It's 3.04V. Could that be a problem? I saw other boards have around 3.3V.

dc42

If the Vcc really is only 3.03V then that could be a problem. However, that reading is taken by the ESP module itself, so it is only as accurate as the voltage reference in the module- which probably has a tolerance of 10% or so.

If the wifi server code keeps resetting with an exception, that suggests a bug in the server code, or possibly a hardware problem. But it's hard to diagnose a crash when we can't reproduce it, especially when we are dependent on 3rd-party code and not all the source is available.

lolorc

Flash size 4194304, free RAM 32808 bytes, WiFi Vcc 3.21V, host name: duetwifi, reset reason: Exception

I can easily reproduce this by connecting to the web interface from both my computer (chromium) and my phone(firefox) and trying to move head from the machine control tab.

A Former User

You are right with the 10% tolerance.
My DMM showed 3.29V between +3.3V and GND on the ESP8266 module.

I tried different server versions:
DuetWiFiServer version 1.02 shows VCC 3.30V
DuetWiFiServer version 1.03 (ch fork) shows VCC 3.04V

The micro sd card shouldn't influence the web server. I also tried without micro sd card. No change.

@dc42: What third-party code do you mean? I only found this for the server: https://github.com/dc42/RepRapFirmware/blob/dev/src/DuetNG/DuetWiFi/Webserver.cpp

@lolorc: What's your signal strength? Does it work for you with only one device connected?

lolorc

@lolorc: What's your signal strength? Does it work for you with only one device connected?

signal strength=-54dBm
It works for me with only one device.
I guess the crashes come from too much errors and retransmissions.
It would help to get real error messages instead of "exception", I'm looking at the source at the moment, I'm wondering how I could add debug statements in DWS (https://github.com/chrishamm/DuetWiFiServer) I'm not sure i can simply add Serial.println("DEBUG: BLAH"); I guess I need to have them parsed in RRF so they get displayed on the console.

about having duetwifi working as a AP, it can be easily implemented in here : https://github.com/chrishamm/DuetWiFiServer/blob/master/src/RepRapWiFi.cpp

Have you tried to use another AP ? an android phone used as a portable hotspot for instance. (as I mention in
https://www.duet3d.com/forum/thread.php?id=455 I had weird issues with a cisco aironet 1130 AP, was working perfectly with my android phone before, now I'm testing a 1140 AP)

lolorc

@lolorc:

[
It would help to get real error messages instead of "exception", I'm looking at the source at the moment, I'm wondering how I could add debug statements in DWS (https://github.com/chrishamm/DuetWiFiServer) I'm not sure i can simply add Serial.println("DEBUG: BLAH"); I guess I need to have them parsed in RRF so they get displayed on the console.

hmmm looks like I might just have to populate ESP_COMMS to receive the Serial.println from DWS