To rigidify or not to rigidify? - vibration issues
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@Nxt-1 I added some information to my post as suggestions. I wish you success, mixing blue color into it is a very good idea, this looks really great!
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I too would prefab the holes to reduce risk of cracking when drilling; fingers crossed!
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@JoergS5 I think all of you suggestions are good points, heck they might even be smarter to do. The reason I did not go for the betonplex wood (as it is called in Dutch) is simple, I had a large plate of this wood at hand and didn't feel like buying a fresh sheet of the smooth wood just for this
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@bearer @JoergS5 I have drill a few holes in concrete the last months, more than I'd like tbh, but never had cracking issues. Maybe I am naive but unless this slab is just to thin to resists cracking, I don't feel worried. * knocks on wood *
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@Nxt-1 To have a lot of experience increases the chances very much
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@Nxt-1 the only issue with that is the screws will still transmit vibration. True vibration mounts are isolated between the screws too. I had them on my CoreXY and it was much quieter than with out. The only issue I had was how they attached with some really long spacers and only two spots added some elasticity in the lotion that I disliked more than the noise.
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@baird1fa You are 100% correct. I have already placed an order for proper nema 23 dampers, but they will take a while to arrive.
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@baird1fa Thinking about this for a while longer, I expect the proper dampers to help but not really solve the issue. I believe a lot of the vibrations will still get coupled to the frame via the axle/bearings/belt combo. And I don't think there really is any way around that, except maybe making the whole motor mount of out tpu
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For a Delta it is not necessary to over regidify the frame. The mass of the print head in comparison to the printer is very low. There are no heavy axis which have be pushed. Print artifacts on Deltas seem generally more linked to exruder issues. Your built btw looks already relatively steady. All the work to make the printer more stable will very probably change nothing.
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@dgrat said in To rigidify or not to rigidify? - vibration issues:
For a Delta it is not necessary to over regidify the frame. The mass of the print head in comparison to the printer is very low. There are no heavy axis which have be pushed. Print artifacts on Deltas seem generally more linked to exruder issues. Your built btw looks already relatively steady. All the work to make the printer more stable will very probably change nothing.
While you might be right that extra rigidity will not help. At the same time we are not trying to make the frame more rigid with the concrete slabs. Just trying to increase the mass, which should reduce vibrations, or lower the resonant frequency of the frame to be precise.
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@Nxt-1 you would be surprised how much the proper mounts help. Belts don’t really transmit vibration as they are already vibration dampers. If you don’t have good linear bearings then that will cause vibrations but i suspect you do have good linear motion components.
If you are using aluminum extrusion filling it with something viscous (hydraulic oil or honey) would help in 2 ways. One it would dampen vibrations and it would also fill the resonance chamber with a fluid that would change the speed of the sound waves.
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@baird1fa said in To rigidify or not to rigidify? - vibration issues:
@Nxt-1 you would be surprised how much the proper mounts help. Belts don’t really transmit vibration as they are already vibration dampers. If you don’t have good linear bearings then that will cause vibrations but i suspect you do have good linear motion components.
I don't disagree that proper stepper damper can do wonders, I have actually used them with success in the first iteration of my printer (nema 17 that time). The issue here is that the motor rigidly connects to a 2nd shaft which holds the pulley. That shaft is supported by two bearings, which sit inside the whole bracket. So there is a rigid connection from the stepper to the axle through the bearings into the frame. What I said is that a damper will not solve that part of the problem.
I indeed use high quality THK SRS_WM rails, they will not be a source of significant vibrations.
If you are using aluminum extrusion filling it with something viscous (hydraulic oil or honey) would help in 2 ways. One it would dampen vibrations and it would also fill the resonance chamber with a fluid that would change the speed of the sound waves.
If I had not previously filled the towers with just pain sand, this would be a way easier solution. Right now, I don't have means of getting the sand out of the 1,5m long extrusions without turning the printer upside down, which I am definitely not doing unless it is my last resort.
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I think what you do is nice, but I honestly don't think it will be worth the investment. Nevertheless, do you have some close up pictures of prints? Please show, what is pushing you forward. I wonder, whether it wouldn't it be smarter to reconsider the effector. Your effector looks rather heavy because of the watercooling. It might be wiser to enhance the rod mechanics and widen the arm distance.
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@dgrat said in To rigidify or not to rigidify? - vibration issues:
I think what you do is nice, but I honestly don't think it will be worth the investment. Nevertheless, do you have some close up pictures of prints? Please show, what is pushing you forward. I wonder, whether it wouldn't it be smarter to reconsider the effector. Your effector looks rather heavy because of the watercooling. It might be wiser to enhance the rod mechanics and widen the arm distance.
Why do you think adding concrete to increase mass, in effort to reduce vibrations will not be worth the investment? (I am not sure either until I try it, just curious)
I do not have pictures of recent prints, heck this version of the printer, with the new rails, steppers etc just printed 1 little cube to confirm all was working. Unless I am missing something, I do not really see why a print closeup is relevant here? I am not trying to improve print quality, only battling audible vibrations.
The pictures/video of the effector in it current state are kind of misleading. Normally, all the water cooling stuff, as well as the extruder is fully supported by the 4th axis. Currently it is not as since the upgrade, there were some unanticipated changes how the 4th axis fits in, and well, it doesn't fit at its designed location. Rest assured once I redesign the 4th axis to fit like it once did, the weight on the effector is about identical to a regular bowden fed smart effector.
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Why do you think adding concrete to increase mass, in effort to reduce vibrations will not be worth the investment? (I am not sure either until I try it, just curious)
Well, the effector of my Deltas is ~0.13kg. With 200m/s travels and accel values of ~3000-5000 mm/s² i get usually 0.2g of vibrations. This is nothing in comparion to my Ender-5. Movable x-axis probably 2 kg. Additionally, the case of the ender is already way less than the weight of my Deltas. I don't underestimate if I say, that the whole Ender is shaking if I set acceleration to 3000 mm/s². Haven't taken a measurement, but but acceleration is probably in the order of 1-2 g, maybe more. Print quality on both machines is decent, beside stringing issues (Deltas with 200 mm/s travel and 60 mm/s print mainly because the BMGs become less reliable to deliver filament at 0.25 mm layer heights). Also I think it is just more economical to reduce weight of the effector than increasing weight of the frame.
please post some print pics
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@dgrat I am sorry that I am going to be blunt, but I really think you don't get what the issue is I am trying to solve. I am not looking to improve print quality, there is no issue there. Even if I remove the effector, the arms and all else you desire except for the motors and belts the frame still resonates at about 800Hz. Once again the effector and its mass, large or not, is not relevant in this case.
Again, I have no prints done with this machine yet, so stop asking for print pics. If I was trying to solve wavy prints or stuff like that, sure. But not in this case.
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Have you enabled interpolation on your machine? I have the feel, that dampening 800 Hz vibrations is also not that easy. There are too many Alu parts which can resonate, even if you add endless weight.
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@dgrat said in To rigidify or not to rigidify? - vibration issues:
Have you enabled interpolation on your machine? I have the feel, that dampening 800 Hz vibrations is also not that easy. There are too many Alu parts which can resonate, even if you add endless weight.
Its not about adding endless weight. Its about adding the right kind of weight.
Metals like aluminum are essentially great big crystals, that propagate vibration really well.CNC machines traditionally use cast iron, not steel, because its actually much more of a granular structure. Because the vibrations are having to cross lots of boundaries between the grains, the materials soak up a lot of the energy. Epoxy granite is used a lot because it has this property, its a mix of aggregate, with epoxy as a binder. Its almost all boundaries between rocks and epoxy, so its really good at absorbing vibration (plus you don't have to wait weeks for it to fully harden like cast iron, and you don't need a foundry).
Regular concrete isn't quite as good as cast iron or epoxy granite, but its still much better than aluminum, and its so cheap and easy compared to those others...
There are lots of people out there building cnc machines using steel or aluminum bonded into concrete or epoxy granite, its a very effective.
Will there still be bits that vibrate or resonate? Probably, but this is a test that will cost tens of dollars and is fun. And based on what the machining world has been doing for over a century, its probably going to work. -
A quick update on slab 1. After a little over 48h of curing, I demolded the slab and it looks great. The surface you see on the picture is actually the back side that was inside the mold and it is quite smooth, I'm happy. I will wait until tomorrow before I start drilling holes, that would bring the final cure to about 36 hours.
On thing I noticed it that especially the mold side surfaces are quite dusty. A quick google leads be to believe that this might be a mixing/moisture error, but I'll be the first to admit that I am not a concrete expert, not at all
. I'm thinking that if it keeps being dusty, I might seal them with the same glossy sealer coat I used on the epoxy granite base of the printer. If the concrete is effective in what we want it to do that is.More pigment for the other slabs and M8-tslot nuts should arrive tomorrow. So hopefully I can test effectiveness with one slab already by tomorrow and if successful, cast the other slabs by the end of the week.
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Just finished drilling the holes and well, the front looks nice. Concerning the back, I see two options. Option one, I blame the first guy who comes up in my @ list for not warning me about concrete cracking. Option two, you guys never mention this again, I never mention it again and no one will ever know
.I guess I am a reformed man now. I fully believe in molding in the bolt holes. This is what I plan to do for the two remaining slabs (and also add a single rebar rob in the middle while I am at it, as suggest by others.
I will post anther update later today how effective this single slab is, as I return to the hw store and return my too short bolt for the proper length ones
