I am just going to leave this right here…..
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While you are investigating hot ends, melt rates and the like, see if you can devise a way to actively (or passively) mix multiple filaments together. Currently there are no mixing hot end that truly mix filaments so what comes out of the nozzles is like stripey toothpaste. So that would be a winner.
On the extrusion side, if you can melt the filament fast enough, there should be very little pressure against which to push the filament so current extruders would likely do the job. Current extruders are more than capable of loading or unloading filament very quickly indeed. It's only when you try and push against the resistance caused by melting the filament and then forcing it through a small orifice, that problems occur. Eliminate the resistance and you've already cured the extruder problem.
On the movement side, it needs to be done in such a way that it is smooth and free from jerky behaviour. For sure it's possible to have very high speeds but if the movement is too jerky, then it won't print well. Don't forget that the viscous filament needs to follow the mechanical movement of the print head and because of their nature, streams of viscous fluids do not accelerate quickly, not do they bend sharply. So it's not so much about the ultimate speed that can be obtained, it's more about accelerating and decelerating up to and down from those speeds in a smooth manner. This is usually the factor which limits ultimate mechanical speed.
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What about inter-layers adhesion? Extruding that fast won't let enough time for the previous layer to melt…
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@fma:
What about inter-layers adhesion? Extruding that fast won't let enough time for the previous layer to melt…
To my understanding, the extruded material is hot enough to soften the previous layer. It apparently isn't much of a problem, the only issue they had with layer adhesion was torsional.
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I can understand that. The flip side of not having time for the new filament to melt the previous layer is that the previous layer won't have had time to cool as much. I know from the limited testing I did with the Diamond hot end and 3 melt chambers that at speeds up to 300mm\sec, inter layer adhesion wasn't a problem.
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Ok, thanks.
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Smoke, i see that in all the facebook groups and people with low experience printing saying "I want this, plis put in marlin, blablabla"
Read less smoke from fake news sites and take more time to learn with your machine. -
Smoke, i see that in all the facebook groups and people with low experience printing saying "I want this, plis put in marlin, blablabla"
Read less smoke from fake news sites and take more time to learn with your machine.All true, but what bearing does that have on the OPs post? It seems that someone is doing some serious research into how we could print faster, largely by finding ways to melt filament faster, which is well known to be a major constraint. I don't see any fake news sites nor any requests for firmware features in the OPs posts.
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In their white paper it says they used DC Servo motors.
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In their white paper it says they used DC Servo motors.
You are absolutely right! I thought they used AC servos! The motors they used are interesting, I am going to try to build one of these. From my understanding, they used an FPGA, I really do not like the idea of an FPGA because I know nothing about them. I have to finish machining the larger CoreXY I am building now in order to prototype this. I have access to slightly different motors so I will make a board more specific to the motors I have. Once I have a working prototype I will share what I come up with. Probably won't start working on this until March. Any and all help is appreciated.
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While you are investigating hot ends, melt rates and the like, see if you can devise a way to actively (or passively) mix multiple filaments together. Currently there are no mixing hot end that truly mix filaments so what comes out of the nozzles is like stripey toothpaste. So that would be a winner.
On the extrusion side, if you can melt the filament fast enough, there should be very little pressure against which to push the filament so current extruders would likely do the job. Current extruders are more than capable of loading or unloading filament very quickly indeed. It's only when you try and push against the resistance caused by melting the filament and then forcing it through a small orifice, that problems occur. Eliminate the resistance and you've already cured the extruder problem.
On the movement side, it needs to be done in such a way that it is smooth and free from jerky behaviour. For sure it's possible to have very high speeds but if the movement is too jerky, then it won't print well. Don't forget that the viscous filament needs to follow the mechanical movement of the print head and because of their nature, streams of viscous fluids do not accelerate quickly, not do they bend sharply. So it's not so much about the ultimate speed that can be obtained, it's more about accelerating and decelerating up to and down from those speeds in a smooth manner. This is usually the factor which limits ultimate mechanical speed.
I have given this a lot of thought over the past few weeks and I still do not know how to approach this problem. This is not an easy problem to solve, the measurement equipment these students had far exceeds the equipment I have at my disposal. This is above me and I am more than aware of it. I am going to attempt to get a few engineers that have the experience necessary to prototype this. This….might take a few....dozen revisions.
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Smoke, i see that in all the facebook groups and people with low experience printing saying "I want this, plis put in marlin, blablabla"
Read less smoke from fake news sites and take more time to learn with your machine.I do not understand what you are on about. This is a proven prototype, with documented research and results, funded largely by Lockheed. This is a functional prototype. There are no smoke and mirrors….this exists already. There is a technical paper on what they found out, and almost how to do it. All I am suggesting...is let us try to find a way to copy this, and improve it where ever possible. Put your tinfoil hat back on, it's better you sit this one out, just don't be asking for help when we get it working.
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I think what he's saying is whilst I like your enthusiasm for the unusual and experimental, nothing gets you further than getting on with building something and then showing us your build and prints. If you can jump straight into this sort of stuff then more power to you, but maybe you might need to just put an i3 together and print some stuff first. 3D printing is about as far from a pure academic exercise as you can get, and I say this now as an author of an article published about 3d printing in a peer reviewed scientific journal, designer of two unique printers and co-owner of a company making 3d printing products, I've a scientific background but I gained my knowledge with my hands on the kit.
Simon. Precision Piezo Z-Probe Technology
www.precisionpiezo.co.uk
PT1000 cartridge sensors NOW IN, just attach to your Duet board directly! -
@djdemond said in I am just going to leave this right here…..:
I think what he's saying is whilst I like your enthusiasm for the unusual and experimental, nothing gets you further than getting on with building something and then showing us your build and prints. If you can jump straight into this sort of stuff then more power to you, but maybe you might need to just put an i3 together and print some stuff first. 3D printing is about as far from a pure academic exercise as you can get, and I say this now as an author of an article published about 3d printing in a peer reviewed scientific journal, designer of two unique printers and co-owner of a company making 3d printing products, I've a scientific background but I gained my knowledge with my hands on the kit.
Why did I never respond to this???
Forgive me for being absent from this forum the last few months, been busy with work. I do not doubt you or discredit you in any way. Did I know all of that? No, haha not at all
nevertheless, a certainly respect what you are saying/what you said and judging from my overall tone back then, I probably would have disagreed with you. After some time had passed and I have more or less done exactly what you prescribed, I feel it is about time to readdress this topic again.Judging from the way you were talking, I imagine it's a pretty safe bet to say you most likely do not know what I do for a living. I am a CNC Machinist, am rather proficient in Autodesk Inventor 3D design and legitimately play with some of the best DC motors on the planet. I certainly know very little about electricity, electronics, motion control, programming, and the chemistry of thermoplastic extrusion relative to many other individuals here. I do, however, have the skills, intelligence, the majority of the tools, access to most of the equipment, probably the funding if I can get Mrs. Faulhaber on board with it (which is one of the reasons I would prefer to use their motors, they'd probably pay for it). When you think about it, regardless of what motors are used for this, or what the first version of this prototype looks like, all it's gonna do is pave the pave the way. If I have to spend a few grand and a few months or even years prototyping but the end result is the beginning of an epic Open-Source project that speeds up FDM/FFF 3D printing 7-14x, I'll bite the bullet, I don't mind. It would be nice to have some help with it though since as of right now I expect to be responsible for the whole damn thing. At the very least, if I can get high enough of it by myself where I can come here and say "here is how far I've gotten, I need help, here's what I got" then that would be a start. I realistically have the ability to make it into a reality with a little bit of help and as a direct result, I feel I have a responsibility to make it happen.
I've designed a bunch of files for it, I'm on the third iteration of the hardware of the machine right now, some pieces are V5 but I have a vision. I'll put what I have up on github and post it here by the end of the calender year most likely, we'll see how far I get between now and then.
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Perhaps someone that reads this might remember and could point me in be right direction or provide a company name or link or something.
I cannot for the life of me remember who made the motors I'm thinking of.
Someone built a 3D printer, or at least a CNC mill or something in one of these forums and used a motor company that was rather unique. The motor looked identical to the motors used in drones or quad copters, only they are a hell of a lot larger, just as efficient, and have encoders. They were relatively inexpensive and would be a fantastic choice for this type of application, and they weren't technik motors. I cannot for the life of me remember who made them, they really did look like hobby brushless servos adopted for an industrial style application. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please drop a link, I wanna but them yesterday haha.
Thanks in advance.
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Are you thinking of odrive?
https://odriverobotics.com/ -
I was literally just looking at that, $130 or $160 for that drive though?! I'm about to see if I can send that to OSH park or something. That sounds absurd.
I want it, that seems excessive though.
