Posts made by bjackson

A silicone sock on the hotend will help a lot.

I should be ordering a few supplies soon, and I will get some socks. My little Ender 3 has one I noticed.

If your duct is blowing on the hotend directly that will certainly have an effect.
I studied the design of the fan shroud outlet ports, and it does look like the designer was definitely trying to direct the air down on the part, and not toward the heated block.

On the subject of this layer cooler: I decided to reduce its output. I thought of a really easy way to do that since it's powered by a 40mm x 40mm fan bolted to a fan mounting port. I just put some washers between on each of the four screws. Now some of the air escapes through the four narrow slots created, and the flow is a bit less near the hot end. If I want to reduce it further, I can add four more washers.

I would expect the reverse situation.
Not sure about that; those are just the auto tune numbers I got. It's the stock FT-5 bed with a piece of mirror glass on top.

In an effort to get things stable enough that I would not have those "in excess of the 15 Deg C" overshoots that were causing faults, I tuned it again using 0.8 for the PWM parameter. I got a new set of numbers for the M307 command. So far so good insofar as the part that aborted yesterday evening looks like it's going to finish today.

Do you have a sock on your hotend?

No sock at this time. I'm still using the totally stock FT-5 extruder (evidently a version of the MK8 hot end), and FolgerTech did not provide a sock.

Do you have a part cooling fan?
I recently added a layer cooler fan shroud and fan. I don't really know if the fan is too strong or not.

When I tuned it last night, the layer cooler was off. I don't recall what the situation with the bed was.

Did you tune with the part cooling fan on and with the hotend close to the bed?

This morning, I did another tuning, and this time I had the nozzle close to the bed, and the bed was at 55 Deg C, and the layer cooler was on at 50% power.

I certainly got a different set of model parameters:
A353.2 C117.2 D10.9, so I loaded those into the M307 command and preheated the hot end. During the pre-heating, the layer cooler was off, as it normally would be during the pre-heat and first layer.

I got faults to occur just on the preheating to 210 Deg C. I just watched it, and shortly after the temp read slightly above 225 Deg C, the fault message appeared.

Overshooting the temperature set point seems to be the primary problem here. The layer cooler fan activity certainly has an effect on things, making me wonder if it's too much air.

As an experiment, I tried increasing the A parameter by 10 %, but it would still overshoot enough to fault. I also tried just changing the S parameter to 0.6 to see what the system would do. I did not run a tune like that, I just changed it in the config.

I guess that effectively reduces the wattage of the heater cartridge. It did not overshoot enough to fault, but it seemed like the temperature drops when the heater was off seemed to go a bit lower.

I'm wondering if things would get better if I did get a sock for the heater block. It seems like that would insulate the block quite a bit from the effects of air blowing from the layer cooler output ports.

Two questions come to mind as a result of this issue. When printing with PLA, how much excursion above and below the set point (210 for example) is tolerable before you will be able to see effects in the print?

If the effects of the layer cooler are too strong (I found no guidance so far on what fan I should be using), then I'm wondering if I could make changes in the slicer to call for less cooling that it normally would.

Alternatively, if it really blows to hard, I suppose one could make an alternate adjustable port on the fan shroud that it would allow some of the air to just blow out where it does nothing, thus reducing the flow rate right at the nozzle where it matters. Of course, I could get another fan.

I've been experiencing some heater shutdowns regarding the hot end. What has happened twice at least is I get both the bed and the hot end pre-heated, and then start a print job. The print starts, and may run for several minutes until suddenly it says:
Error: Heating fault on heater 1, temperature excursion exceeded 15.0 Deg C.

Now for some recent history:
I performed the M303 H1 S210 to get auto tuning done. The process completed, and it warned that Heater 1 appeared to be over powered. If left on a full power, it's temperature is predicted to reach 651 Deg C. Auto tune heater 1 completed in 275 seconds.

I did the M500 command to write data to config-override.g, and also did M301 H1 to take a look at the results. What it came back with was:
gain: 626.9, time constant: 188.2, dead time 12.6, max PWM 1.00, calibration voltage 24.0, mode PID, inverted no, frequency default.
The computed parameters were:
P4.2, I0.087, D37.5. Computed PID parameters for load change: P4.2

After doing auto tune on the hot end, I did the same process on the bed.

I have attached my config.g and config-override.g in case there are clues within.

Other things I have done were to double check the integrity of the connections to the heater cartridge and the thermistor near the hot end. At one point, I disconnected the heater cartridge from the system so I could measure its resistance at room temperature. It read about 14.8 ohms, which would make it about 38.9 watts, and suggests that it is made for 24 volt use.

The hot end components are still rather new, having seen little use to date.

Here are the configuration files:

config.g config-override.g

I guess I have some redundancy there in my configuration insofar as there's tuning parameters in the M307 lines of config.g, and also the data in config-override.g that would be invoked with the M501 command near the end of config.g.

@Veti said in Picking a layer cooler fan:

you want to store petg in a dry place when you are not printing with it.

I have a storage box from Staples that forms a decent seal around the lid. Inside are some bags of silica dessicant. I also have a food dehydrator that can hold a 1 kg spool.

That gives rise to a question about using a dehydrator. If you've had some filament out in the open for a few days, and you think it might need to be made dryer, what's a reasonable time in the dehydrator?

I printed the Benchy Boat test using my newly installed layer cooler. The difference was dramatic on the overhang when printing the hull of the boat. I wonder why FolgerTech sold a kit that didn't have a layer cooler? It looks to me like it's an essential component.

The improvement I saw with that fan I listed above tells me it must be decently close to the right specs for this application or it would not have had such a positive effect.

@Veti said in Picking a layer cooler fan:

you can try petg instead of abs. its easier to print

Thank you for that; I was about to ask for a recommendation for something a little more suitable, but within my current capabilities. Is PETG particularly hygroscopic?

I did have a little issue with warping of one of the fan shroud arms, but I think I know why, and I think I fixed it. Time will tell I guess. The problem was on the left side only, and I think it was because the wires for the heater block element and thermistor came out and were pressing just slightly on the arm, thus making it twist slightly and descend too.

I took the heater block apart and re-oriented the wires a bit so that they don't press on the arm. I used heat gun to soften the arm just bit, and then put a block under it so it would harden up again in the desired shape. So far, so good.

@Phaedrux

Yes, I printed this one.

www.thingiverse.com/thing:3030440

Veti remarked about a thought I'd also had, that being how well would the device survive its proximity to the hot end block.

I did adhere some aluminum foil to the surfaces that are closest the the hot end block in an effort to reflect away some of the heat. Another thing I will find out is whether that foil will remain in place.

During times that the layer fan is running, the air moving through it will have a cooling effect that could mitigate warping, but I can't predict yet how this will work out.

It occurred to me that ABS might be a better choice for making this part, but I'm not that far enough along yet; i.e. I don't even have any ABS filament, and no experience using it.

The fan I have placed on the duct for now is a 40mm fan that's 28 mm thick. The nameplate current draw is 0.195 Amp. Here are the specs.

San Ace 40 109P0412H3D053
Dimensions: 40x40x28 MM
Voltage: DC 12V
Current: 0.195A
Input Power: 2.34W
Speed: 8700 RPM
Air Flow: 11.3 CFM
Noise: 37 dBA
Bearing: Ball
Feature: Locked Rotor Sensor
Termination: 3-Pin / 3-Wire / 9-Inch

This is a 12 volt fan, although I think there are 24 volt versions available. Since the board is putting out 24 volts, I placed a 68 ohm resistor is series with the fan to divide the voltage approximately in half.

The resistor is large enough to dissipate the heating, but clearly when I go to buy something, I'll get a 24 volt fan.

I am working on getting a FolgerTech FT-5 R2 printer going that still has the stock hot end (MK-8 style). I'm using the standard 0.4 mm nozzle for normal printing with PLA at the moment.

I downloaded and printed a fan shroud that came from Thingiverse. It has a mounting point for a 40mm fan, and it ducts the air to three outlets around the nozzle.

My question is simply this: What sort of fan should I buy. In other words, what would be about the right max CFM rating so that it would provide a reasonable amount of air flow for this application.

I suppose another way to ask the question is "about how much current would an appropriately sized fan draw?".

I did research here and learned the fan outputs on the control board can source 2 amps, but I'm pretty sure that I neither need nor want a fan that powerful. I'm expecting the slicer to control the fan speed most of the time.

@Phaedrux said in Trying to get a FolgerTech FT5, R2 kit dialed in:

I'd venture that the actual value is 3950

I think you are right. Now that I know that things that look exactly like my hot end appear as kits on Amazon searchable as MK8, some of those mention as the thermistor description "NTC 3950 100K Thermistor".

I'm wondering if the bed thermistor that FolgerTech put in my kit is likely to be the same or not.

BTW, I did do the tests to determine the maximum extrusion rate at 210 Deg C, and I came up with a volumetric limit of 8 cu-mm/sec, and thus a max printing speed for 0.2 mm layer height and 0.4 mm layer width of 100 mm/sec.

Yes, that is on my list as well.

Since I am getting some of the "Extruder Issues" somewhat resolved and understood, I may move forward for a while with this MK8 configuration since it does work. I think the priority right now is to arrange for a "part cooler" fan system.

BTW, I was talking with a friend today about his 3D printing adventures. He has a Creality CR10, and he made some remarks about wanting to upgrade his mainboard at some point. I gave him a glowing review of the Duet3D line.

I came here because of all the miserable issues I had with compiling Marlin. I could not get it to work; compiles always failed, and the error messages were really aimed at somebody who was a full blown coder (which I am not).

I am also planning to get clear acrylic panels laser cut so I can enclose the FT-5. The fact it's already a nice box framed with extrusions, and nothing major tries to "poke out" of the rectangular solid shape it is, makes it an easy device to put walls on. I'm sure many here have enclosed their printers in various creative ways

@Phaedrux said in Trying to get a FolgerTech FT5, R2 kit dialed in:

That sounds like a form of the MK8 extruder.

Yes, the pictures in your link are almost a perfect match for what FolgerTech included in my kit.

You can add a nozzle prime line to the start gcode section, or you can use the skirt function.

I worked a bit with both of those suggestions. I tried putting the g-code commands in the section to be applied before each print, but it didn't work as expected. The nozzle came over the the front right, seemed to try and extrude a little (nothing came out), then it traveled over to the front left, and extruded a big doughnut of PLA that just surrounded the nozzle since it wasn't moving. Rather than troubleshoot that immediately, I moved on to your second suggestion.

I had been slicing using something called the "Cura Engine" accessible to be through Repetier. That slicer has no "skirt" function. It has brim and raft, but not skirt. I then looked at Cura 4.7. That of course had the skirt function plus a hugh bunch of new confusing things I sliced the 20 mm calibration cube and sent it to the printer. The results were not good.

I had a bad first layer really, some of the corners start to lift off, and there was a persistent corruption of one of the sides of the cube near one of the corners, pretty much all the way up. Photo attached; not sure what happened, and it was repeatable.

I also have Slic3r accessible through Repetier, and I just downloaded their latest version as well. Of all the slicers I've fooled with so far, the interface on Slic3r is my favorite. It made a good calibration cube, and it had a very functional and easy to configure skirt function.

As for the remark I made in another post about the filament springing out when I would start another job, I have partially tracked that down. The extruder motor was definitely going in reverse after a print finished, and it felt like it was running quite a while (probably would have ejected 100 mm if there had been that much to retract). I have not located the g-code yet that was doing that. When I printed the cube sliced by Slic3r, the extruder did not do that at the end of the print.

@Phaedrux said in Trying to get a FolgerTech FT5, R2 kit dialed in:

Couldn't hurt.
I think FT5 stands for Fix That x5

I think I'm ready to improve the extruder assembly on this printer. The stock extruder just has a single toothed drive gear and a spring actuated roller to press the filament against the drive gear. The grip just isn't that good. Sometimes, when I start a print, after the bed probing is done, the gantry goes to the start point, the extruder starts moving, and filament immediately pops out off the top of the extruder.

Also, when that does not happen, and the print actually starts, it often seems like the filament is so late in starting to come out of the nozzle that a fraction of the first layer of the actual part might be missing. It seems like I need to have something in the "Start g-code" section of Cura to make the nozzle do an extra lap around the outside of the part before it begins for real. I'm not sure how to do that.

I've seen some videos about assembling the parts needed to retrofit something like the E3D extruder and hot end that involve sourcing some milled aluminum parts from 713maker.com. It seems that they are out of stock on their aluminum extruder mounting plates, so I'd need to look elsewhere for the mounting bits.

Has anybody here got a suggestion for a source for what's needed? The aluminum parts looked nice, but thingiverse may offer 3D printed parts to do this as well. I will look around.

@Phaedrux said in Trying to get a FolgerTech FT5, R2 kit dialed in:

... and maybe some over extrusion as well.

I'm thinking that too. I followed that link to the calibration page you suggested. Down near the end was the "Method 1" using the 100 mm x 100 mm very thin walled cube. Experimenting with various settings in DWC of the extrusion factor caused me to settle initially on a value of 77%.

That seemed like quite a significant adjustment to be making, but I went ahead and revised the extruder estep value in config.g and printed another Benchy boat. The attached photo shows considerable improvement, that's for sure.

It surprised me that my first extruder estep adjustment made by my measuring actual filament distance moved into the extruder when requesting 100 mm of extrusion would be subject to a second adjustment so large.

I still think I need to get a better extruder and/or hot end. It doesn't seem to me like the stock extruder grips the filament quite as securely as I would like.

@Veti
Since the thermistors I have came from FolgerTech, and you can't ask them any questions, I searched around looking for any posts where somebody seemed to have authoritatively identified and specified the thermistors that were placed in the R2 kits like I have. I found no such post, but that doesn't mean there isn't one to be found someplace.

It occurred to me after reading some articles on calibration that perhaps what I should try to do is make measurements and determine a beta value myself. I do have a thermocouple sensor for one multi-meter, and I have another meter I can use for resistance measurements.

I got the hot end plenty hot while I had my thermocouple in there with some thermal grease to help it be more accurate. I then turned off the machine and quickly transferred the thermistor leads to my meter. Now, it was just a matter of taking occasional readings as it cooled down. I even got a reading below ambient room temperature by holding an ice cube against the hot end block when it wasn't going to get any cooler on its own.

I used the readings at 28 Deg C and 217 Deg C along with the resistance readings of 86800 ohms and 500 ohms. Plugging that data into the formula resulted in an experimentally calculated beta of 4022.

For now, that's what I have in my config.g now. For the moment, I'm going to assume this is also valid for the bed thermistor, but I may test that later.

@Phaedrux said in Trying to get a FolgerTech FT5, R2 kit dialed in:

That definitely looks like overheated printing and maybe some over extrusion as well.

A few thoughts have gone through my mind after reading a few other things here and there. This extruder assembly that was/is "stock" on the FT5 kit is really sort of a bare bones (just enough to get the job done) sort of assembly. There is just one fan involved, and it blows on a heatsink that keeps the upper part of the extruder assembly from being too hot. There is no part cooler fan at all.

One site showed a similar looking flawed boat hull and mentioned filament droop as the problem caused by insufficient cooling. I'm wondering if I should consider just getting a totally new extruder/hot end assembly that's better engineered. I have spare conductors in the wiring harness so I can easily support having two fans separately controlled. I would just need to find a good product that's not terribly difficult to adapt to the existing FT5 gantry.

In the meantime, I will start studying that calibration link you provided.

I tried using the laser guided optical thermometer on the hot end, but the results gave me zero confidence that I was getting any sort of useful measurement with that tool in this application.

I then recalled that I had a thermocouple probe and a digital multi-meter with a temperature function made for it (came all together in the multi-meter kit). I was able to put that little thermocouple sensing end into one of the little holes in the hot end block and hold it there for a while.

The setting in the Duet console was 210 Deg C. The meter was reading about 198-200 Deg C. So, it would seem that the mismatch in my configuration may be causing printing to be at about 10 Deg C lower than intended.

How critical is the printing temperature with PLA? How far off the right temp might I need to be in order to cause the issues shown in the pictures.

I'm not sure how to obtain the correct values to use with the thermistor that I have. All that I really know about it now is that it was included in the FT5-R2 stock kit, and it fits in a 3mm hole in the hot end. I would like to just contact FolgerTech and ask them for information about what I have, but they are not really responsive these days.

An alternative perhaps is to just buy a new temperature sensor from somebody that knows what they are selling, and could provide additional tech information if needed. For example, I could get at PT1000 sensor from Filastruder that looks like it would fit in the hole (right diameter and length). Perhaps I should get two of them, and replace whatever is in the bed heater area too.

One thing that has occurred to me is to bring the hot end up to where it reports say 210 Deg C, then aim a non-contact laser equipped thermometer at the hot end and see if it seems close, or is way off. I may try that later today.

Some time ago, I bought a FolgerTech FT5 kit. It came with a BigTreeTech SKR 1.3 board as the controller. It did work for a while, but then it failed. I got some replacement boards on the Internet, but they had problems too. I decided I didn't want any more of those boards, so now I'm here, and using a Duet2Ethernet board with a 5" PanelDue.

It's all connected, and basically working, and pretty much still a stock FT5. I have added a BLTouch probe and a glass plate to print on.

I have so far only progressed to making some test prints. One of the files makes a little open top cube, and the other file is for the Benchy boat. I have attached photos of the most recent prints made of the cube and the boat.

The cube is not terrible, but the boat really is pretty bad. In the same room, I have a stock Creality Ender 3 printer that makes much nicer copies of these two objects, so clearly I have some work ahead in order to get this FT5 to do as well as the little Chinese printer. This is the first time I have built a 3D printer from parts, and thus been responsible for getting it all tuned up correctly.

The most obvious thing wrong with the boat is all the random strands all over the hull, but other aspects of the print look pretty rough to me as well. The cube is better, but I do notice that there seems to be a little build up of height at the corners, giving the top corners little peaks that I don't think should be there.

Some observations and things tried so far:
I did a calibration of the esteps for the extruder and confirmed that when I ask for 100 mm of filament, I get 100 mm moved into the extruder. The esteps for the X, Y, & Z motion look fine to me as things move to the expected locations. It appears to me that the BLTouch probe system is working.

When I watch the boat print, one of the things I see as the nozzle goes around the perimeter while building up the hull is that the existing model seems a little soft, and as the nozzle goes around extruding another layer, it see it actually pushing down on the existing model enough that I can see it flex. In fact, more than once the force applied by the nozzle on the existing partial model was enough to unstick it from the glass plate. That failure is not pictured

Because I'm rather new to this, I'm hoping some folks here with more experience (maybe even with converting an FT5 to Duet), can give me some suggestions of things to try. I'm pretty confident that the FT5 should be able to do much better.

I have also included my config.g file for review. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
config.g

Regards,

Brian

@elmoret

I wanted to post an update since I have of course received the replacement Duet2Ethernet board and I've been working with it extensively.

I have installed it in the FolgerTech FT5 printer and hooked it up to all the hardware that I have. In this case, that's the X,Y, & Z motors, the extruder (I have only one, and it's the stock unit that came in the kit).

I've got the stock bed heater, the extruder heater, the stock thermistors, and the fan that cools the extruder. I also have added a BLTouch probe. I don't have any other fans such as a part cooler, at least not yet.

The board is running everything properly, so it seems. I can do auto bed leveling, and I can run test prints, but there are issues with the prints that I'm going to ask about in this forum, but I'll start another thread elsewhere.

Thanks again for the warranty support. It's good to have a board and PanelDue that seem to be working as designed.

This has been great support from Tim and Filastruder. When I get a board back here, I will restart this project and move closer to the goal of having a FolgerTech FT-5, R2 running with Duet controls.

I still may have a question or two down the line as I'm still pretty new to 3D printing, and the building of customized hardware configurations for such printers.

I did just try M997 with no paramaters, but the result was the same. Like before, it reports the USB interface will be shut down for the upgrade. When I connect back to the board later, it's still at 2.03.