Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO)

CCS86

Hey guys,

I am considering a Duet board for my original Ultimaker (probably a Duet 2 Wifi).

My goals:

Quieter operation
More integrated fan control options
More accurate / smooth stepper motion
Network connectivity
More processor overhead. 8-bit is pretty lean once you start adding features.
Touchscreen support would be nice
.
.

My questions:

Does the Duet firmware provide some type of extruder advance to improve flow control in bowden based printers?
Do the Duet boards support the Reprapdiscount Full Graphic Smart Controller? Some older posts here show that they had no plans to develop firmware support, even though the connections are present. But, some more recent posts seem to show the controller working on a Maestro.
Is a Type-K Thermocouple supported directly, or would it require an expansion board?
I believe my current heater cartridge is 18V 40W, and wondering if that would be directly supported as well.

If anyone has some insights on this, I would definitely appreciate it!

jay_s_uk

@CCS86

Yes, it supports pressure advance for Bowden

Only the maestro supports that type of display. For the full duet 2 or duet 3 you would need to buy a paneldue (although I have one and always use the web interface)

K-type thermocouples need the daughterboard

The 18v heater cartridge depends on input voltage of the PSU. If you're using 18v in you'll be fine. Anything above or below that I would recommend changing it.

CCS86

@jay_s_uk said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

@CCS86

Yes, it supports pressure advance for Bowden

Only the maestro supports that type of display. For the full duet 2 or duet 3 you would need to buy a paneldue (although I have one and always use the web interface)

K-type thermocouples need the daughterboard

The 18v heater cartridge depends on input voltage of the PSU. If you're using 18v in you'll be fine. Anything above or below that I would recommend changing it.

Thanks for the reply Jay.

That is pretty disappointing that the less expensive board supports the LCD display/controller, but the more expensive ones do not. If they already wrote support into the firmware and the connections are present on the Duet 2 wifi, what is missing?

Web control is nice to have, I just don't want to be forced into it. If I am wanting to make some small tweaks to a print: Z babysteps, flow, temp, etc; and I am in front of the printer, it seems super awkward to go across the room to the computer for every change. I don't want to bounce around the room like a ping pong!

Do you use pressure advance? If so, what's your extruder setup and how would you rate the effectivenmess?

jens55

Pressure advance is VERY effective on my large bowden based printer.
Re the web interface - do yourself a favour and buy a used old laptop (or maybe a tablet) and dedicate it as the display for the web control. It can be an ancient unit as no computing power is needed.

dc42

@CCS86 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

That is pretty disappointing that the less expensive board supports the LCD display/controller, but the more expensive ones do not. If they already wrote support into the firmware and the connections are present on the Duet 2 wifi, what is missing?

What's missing is hardware to gate the clock signal and level-shift it to 5V, which is the level that these displays require (the manufacturer specifies 3.5V minimum). I've heard of folks using these display with other 3.3V electronics without level shifting, and they had to slow the SPI clock speed down to make it work at all.

On the Duet Maestro we included that gating and level shifting hardware.

I would happily add firmware support for the 12864 display in the firmware build for the Duet WiFi/Ethernet, but users of it would need to add the missing hardware (basically a 74HCT08 chip) themselves.

droftarts

@CCS86 You don't have to ping-pong across the room, just pull out your phone/tablet, connect to the Duet on your network, do it from there. Way more available functionality, too. No bending over/crouching down to look at the awkward screen that is at the bottom of the machine and not tilted back! Yes, I've used Ultimakers...

Ian

Phaedrux

@CCS86 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

If I am wanting to make some small tweaks to a print: Z babysteps, flow, temp, etc; and I am in front of the printer,

That's why I love my PanelDue

CCS86

@dc42 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

@CCS86 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

That is pretty disappointing that the less expensive board supports the LCD display/controller, but the more expensive ones do not. If they already wrote support into the firmware and the connections are present on the Duet 2 wifi, what is missing?

What's missing is hardware to gate the clock signal and level-shift it to 5V, which is the level that these displays require (the manufacturer specifies 3.5V minimum). I've heard of folks using these display with other 3.3V electronics without level shifting, and they had to slow the SPI clock speed down to make it work at all.

On the Duet Maestro we included that gating and level shifting hardware.

I would happily add firmware support for the 12864 display in the firmware build for the Duet WiFi/Ethernet, but users of it would need to add the missing hardware (basically a 74HCT08 chip) themselves.

Thanks for the quick reply!

This would also be the case for the Duet 3?

What are the biggest differences between the Maestro and Duet 2 Wifi?

Phaedrux

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Comparison_of_Duets_vs._other_32-bit_controller_boards

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/The_Duet_family_of_motion_control_electronics

CCS86

@Phaedrux said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Comparison_of_Duets_vs._other_32-bit_controller_boards

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/The_Duet_family_of_motion_control_electronics

Thanks for these links.

It doesn't really seem like the Maestro would involve much sacrifice for me, compared to the Wifi (besides the wired connection).

Can you think of anything for my application that would leave me wanting more from the Maestro?

arhi

@CCS86 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

Web control is nice to have, I just don't want to be forced into it.

You don't have to get a paneldue, you can find an old phone/tablet that you bolt on to your printer (or not) and that connects through the web. You can either use the full web interface (DWC) or you can use the reduced web interface (dueui: https://forum.duet3d.com/category/33/dueui ) that's better suited for the small screen. That will be cheaper than paneldue and give even more versatility.

CCS86

It looks like if I went with the Maestro, I could just order this heater and sensor for direct compatibility, right?

https://www.filastruder.com/collections/all-e3d/products/e3d-pt1000-sensor

https://www.filastruder.com/collections/all-e3d/products/e3d-heater-cartridge?variant=17411368550471 (Premium, 24v, 40w)

The Duet 2 Wifi doesn't offer direct support for the PT1000 sensor?

CCS86

@arhi said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

@CCS86 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

Web control is nice to have, I just don't want to be forced into it.

You don't have to get a paneldue, you can find an old phone/tablet that you bolt on to your printer (or not) and that connects through the web. You can either use the full web interface (DWC) or you can use the reduced web interface (dueui: https://forum.duet3d.com/category/33/dueui ) that's better suited for the small screen. That will be cheaper than paneldue and give even more versatility.

Good call.

I think I already have a mini windows tablet I could use.

arhi

Most of my printers are without screen. I am using octoprint and I connect from old useless under $10 android phones using printoid (android app that connect to octoprint) and while fairly cheap printoid pro can monitor multiple printers I use on these old phones printoid lite and have phone directly on each printer attach to a charger, as batteries are long dead. Works great for me. I'm now setting up new printers with DUET hardware (for now duet2ethernet but will soon get some duet3 boards too) and on few I have paneldue that I almost never use, so I decided not to spend more money on panel's and use only web interface, or if someone comes up with android/ios app I might use that. If push comes to shove I might even get some of my employees to make me something like printoid for android/ios that will work with DUET hardware. That might not be a bad business decision

DaBit

@arhi : DueUI might work for you. I did not see an APK at the latest release assets, but Ik am site you will get one when you ask for it.

arhi

@DaBit already using dueui, I would not recommend it to ccs86 otherwise

Dougal1957

@CCS86 The Duet 2 Wifi doesn't offer direct support for the PT1000 sensor?
Er yes the Duet Wifi does offer full native support for a PT1000 without any other hardware!

CCS86

@Dougal1957 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

@CCS86 The Duet 2 Wifi doesn't offer direct support for the PT1000 sensor?
Er yes the Duet Wifi does offer full native support for a PT1000 without any other hardware!

Thanks!

They should update this page:

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Comparison_of_Duets_vs._other_32-bit_controller_boards

It is mentioned specifically for the Maestro and Duet 3, but not mentioned for the Duet 2 Wifi/Wired

Also, on this page: https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/The_Duet_family_of_motion_control_electronics

It says that it will work with the PT1000, but with "reduced accuracy". That's not as exciting.

dc42

The Maestro has the following limitations compared to the WiFi/Ethernet:

Stepper drivers limited to 1.6A vs. 2.4A
No stall detection
Limited expansion, basically 2 more stepper drivers + a few GPIO pins
Available only in Ethernet version
Slightly less powerful processor, in particular no hardware floating point

It has the following advantages:

Drivers support stealthChop, so quieter if you print slowly (stealthChop is not recommended for high speeds)
Supports low-cost RepRapDiscount LCD as an alternative to PanelDue
Easier wiring of BLTouch probes
Thermistor inputs optimised for PT1000 sensors (but a little less good for high-temperature thermistors)

So if you don't need more expansion, and 1.6A current is enough for your motors (it's enough for almost all Nema 17 motors), and you are not running a Polar or SCARA printer that especially benefits from hardware floating point, then the Maestro is adequate and costs less.

HTH David

CCS86

@dc42 said in Considering a Duet: Could Use Some Insight (UMO):

The Maestro has the following limitations compared to the WiFi/Ethernet:

Stepper drivers limited to 1.6A vs. 2.4A

No stall detection

Limited expansion, basically 2 more stepper drivers + a few GPIO pins

Available only in Ethernet version

Slightly less powerful processor, in particular no hardware floating point

It has the following advantages:

Drivers support stealthChop, so quieter if you print slowly (stealthChop is not recommended for high speeds)

Supports low-cost RepRapDiscount LCD as an alternative to PanelDue

Easier wiring of BLTouch probes

So if you don't need more expansion, and 1.6A current is enough for your motors (it's enough for almost all Nema 17 motors), and you are not running a Polar or SCARA printer that especially benefits from hardware floating point, then the Maestro is adequate and costs less.

HTH David

Thanks again David!

The technical differences and real world interpretation are just what I was looking for.

What would you say the speed limitation of stealth chop 2 is? And what happens when you exceed this? (Skipped steps, resonance?)