Duet3D Logo Duet3D
    • Tags
    • Documentation
    • Order
    • Register
    • Login

    Battling sources of vibration and noise

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved
    My Duet controlled machine
    9
    84
    5.3k
    Loading More Posts
    • Oldest to Newest
    • Newest to Oldest
    • Most Votes
    Reply
    • Reply as topic
    Log in to reply
    This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
    • Nxt-1undefined
      Nxt-1 @Kolbi
      last edited by

      @Kolbi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

      @Nxt-1 What is the loading range of the mounts you are using in the pic? IMO they seem way too rigid - they do not yield enough elasticity to absorb the vibration energy for this application. That is if the vibration energy is emitting from the motor itself.

      Sadly hard to say, I picked them up from a local hardware store and they were specified as 'damper, type B', no more no less. I agree, due to the compact size the isn't really that much room for flexing rubber, so they are stiffer than I'd have wanted. On the other hand, from my test without the belt, I can conclude they do their job. Otherwise the vibrations would still travel trough the rubber into the frame, which wasn't the case.

      Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
      Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • Nxt-1undefined
        Nxt-1
        last edited by

        Finally some good news! 🙂

        Yesterday evening I decided to try the inertial damper route. Someone linked it before in this thread and it's basically a high rotational inertia disk that you bolt on the stepper shaft. The added inertia functions similar to a smoothing capacitor in electronics and smooths down the riple, in this case of the vibrations caused by the motor.

        Because I didn't have the time (nor the budget to just try) to get the real stuff from Oriental, I designed a very simple DIY intermediate. With lead disks and a printer cover to keep them in place. While it certainly is DIY 🙂 it provides a night and day difference. I will most likely order the proper ones this week.
        2020-09-07 09.25.19.jpg

        Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
        Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

        arhiundefined theruttmeisterundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • arhiundefined
          arhi @Nxt-1
          last edited by

          @Nxt-1 aren't those supposed to slip?

          Nxt-1undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • Nxt-1undefined
            Nxt-1 @arhi
            last edited by

            @arhi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

            @Nxt-1 aren't those supposed to slip?

            Examining what little documents I can find on the proper dampers that could very well be the case. And I see it making sense to smooth movement while continuously turning, yet not hindering acceleration/jerk.

            I don't think that level of performance is going to happen with what I just build here though, it's either all slip or no slip 🙂

            I just placed an order for 3 of the proper ones from Oriental so we'll find out more soon enough I guess 🙂

            Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
            Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

            arhiundefined Kolbiundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • arhiundefined
              arhi @Nxt-1
              last edited by

              @Nxt-1

              https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/17007/fly-wheel-on-stepper-motor

              https://www.cnczone.com/forums/stepper-motors-drives/30941-making-harmonic-dampers-flywheel-motors.html

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • Kolbiundefined
                Kolbi @Nxt-1
                last edited by

                @Nxt-1 said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                find out more soon enough

                Hope it goes well, I was wondering how those would be in regards to acceleration and jerk.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • theruttmeisterundefined
                  theruttmeister @Nxt-1
                  last edited by

                  @Nxt-1
                  I'm curious to see the numbers once you have three installed. I would expect that you can still get the motors to vibrate, but the dampers are probably shifting that frequency to a place you'll never get to...

                  I'm also curious if they make a difference to print quality.

                  Isolate, substitute, verify.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • Kolbiundefined
                    Kolbi
                    last edited by

                    @Nxt-1, I just had an idea on determining your motor vibration emission, not sure on how effective though.
                    If you cut the current down by ~75% it should decrease the intensity of motor generated vibrations while the movement (drive train) generated vibrations would stay the same. This could let you know what to expect with the installation of the rotational dampers / help separate the two possible offending sources.

                    Nxt-1undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Nxt-1undefined
                      Nxt-1 @Kolbi
                      last edited by

                      @Kolbi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                      @Nxt-1, I just had an idea on determining your motor vibration emission, not sure on how effective though.
                      If you cut the current down by ~75% it should decrease the intensity of motor generated vibrations while the movement (drive train) generated vibrations would stay the same. This could let you know what to expect with the installation of the rotational dampers / help separate the two possible offending sources.

                      This is what I am doing at the moment to keep the noise levels down whenever I want to. It's a far from ideal solution but quite effective. Further reinforcing my point that the motors are the major source if not the only real source.

                      Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                      Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                      Kolbiundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Kolbiundefined
                        Kolbi @Nxt-1
                        last edited by

                        @Nxt-1 Did you make any progress with the Oriental clean dampers?

                        Nxt-1undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Nxt-1undefined
                          Nxt-1 @Kolbi
                          last edited by

                          @Kolbi Define progress, I am 2/3's of the way through waiting for them to be shipped 😞 Oriental is disappointingly slow this time around, the expected shipping date is the 24th

                          Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                          Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                          Kolbiundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • Kolbiundefined
                            Kolbi @Nxt-1
                            last edited by

                            @Nxt-1 Ug, that sucks.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Nxt-1undefined
                              Nxt-1
                              last edited by

                              Finally some decent news, the dampers arrived as predicted on the 25th. Installation was quick and easy, two setscrews and done. On thing that I noticed right away is that they are light, the datasheets specs them at 61g. Compared to the ~300-400g of lead I had on there before, that's absolutely nothing. This made my quite hesitant as to there performance.

                              Yet after some first moves I can say that the dampers do not disappoint. Not a magical noise reducer by any means but they definitely take the edge off and bring the noise down to something acceptable. I need to do some more testing but at this point I'd say they are worth ~€120 for a set.
                              2020-09-28 17.30.10.jpg

                              At this point I still plan to have the motor brackets machined out of steel, but for a number of reasons (including cost) that will have to wait for a while. What I do want to try out soon-ish is removing the stepper face dampers again. Just to see what would happen.

                              Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                              Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                              Kolbiundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • theruttmeisterundefined
                                theruttmeister
                                last edited by

                                Nice.

                                (filler text).

                                Isolate, substitute, verify.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Kolbiundefined
                                  Kolbi @Nxt-1
                                  last edited by

                                  @Nxt-1, now that you've had the mechanical clean dampers on for a bit, have you observed any print quality effects?

                                  Nxt-1undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Nxt-1undefined
                                    Nxt-1 @Kolbi
                                    last edited by

                                    @Kolbi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                                    @Nxt-1, now that you've had the mechanical clean dampers on for a bit, have you observed any print quality effects?

                                    I am sorry for the late reply, I have been and will continue to be limited on time for 3D printing stuff sadly. My opinion has not really changed since my last post. I have done some small prints now and then with the Duet running all out at 2.4A and the noise is acceptable. I still have to test without the face dampers and printing at the outer edges (so the carriages have to move faster) but I do not have a plan for when I am going to do that.

                                    In terms of actual print quality I see no difference. There were no real print quality issues to improve on anyway. If anything I'd expect increased ringing at corners due to the increased rotational inertia. Yet again the viscous clutch style internals of the dampers should combat that as much as possible.

                                    Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                                    Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                                    Kolbiundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • Kolbiundefined
                                      Kolbi @Nxt-1
                                      last edited by

                                      @Nxt-1, thanks for the update - definitely interesting subject matter.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Kolbi

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • Nxt-1undefined
                                        Nxt-1
                                        last edited by

                                        It seems things never go as planned, but in a good way this time 🙂 Yesterday I got a marketing email notifying me off 50% cnc machined parts in stainless for a couple of days, so I guess it is go time.

                                        I have attached some pictures of the complete assembly as well as the step file for the backet itself. If you have remarks, shooth.

                                        046440b6-6560-4581-804c-6858bc4a9aa5-image.png
                                        b29d751c-ac35-4293-815e-6192534e2b93-image.png
                                        5a31efeb-bacb-4a38-aceb-9a9aead89c69-image.png

                                        MotorBracket.step

                                        Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                                        Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • theruttmeisterundefined
                                          theruttmeister
                                          last edited by

                                          Out of stainless?

                                          Might be a little bit overkill 😉

                                          Also, retaining rings for the bearings? Or are you planning on them being a press-fit?

                                          Isolate, substitute, verify.

                                          Nxt-1undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • Nxt-1undefined
                                            Nxt-1 @theruttmeister
                                            last edited by

                                            @theruttmeister said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                                            Out of stainless?

                                            Might be a little bit overkill 😉

                                            Also, retaining rings for the bearings? Or are you planning on them being a press-fit?

                                            100% stainless is overkill, but it's a deal of economics at this point. I want them made out of steel instead of aluminum just because of the higher mass. And with the sale I have access to as this point stainless is actually cheaper then the other steels and just about the price of alu. So I figured stainless it is 🙂

                                            Good point I should double check the bearing fits, I did plan them to be a loose press fit.

                                            Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                                            Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                            • First post
                                              Last post
                                            Unless otherwise noted, all forum content is licensed under CC-BY-SA