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Battling sources of vibration and noise

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My Duet controlled machine
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  • undefined
    engikeneer @Nxt-1
    last edited by 6 Sept 2020, 15:52

    @Nxt-1 if it is definitely the belt thats causing the resonance issues, I'd focus my efforts on that. Did you try the 20T pulleys? What about making a significant change to the belt length (longer or shorter)? Granted this might be tricky given the machine design... have you also tried using 9mm or 12mm belts instead? They'll at least have different mass/stiffness properties.

    E3D TC with D3Mini and Toolboards.
    Home-built CoreXY, Duet Wifi, Chimera direct drive, 2x BMG, 300x300x300 build volume
    i3 clone with a bunch of mods

    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 6 Sept 2020, 18:08 Reply Quote 0
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      Nxt-1 @engikeneer
      last edited by 6 Sept 2020, 18:08

      @engikeneer said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

      @Nxt-1 if it is definitely the belt thats causing the resonance issues, I'd focus my efforts on that. Did you try the 20T pulleys? What about making a significant change to the belt length (longer or shorter)? Granted this might be tricky given the machine design... have you also tried using 9mm or 12mm belts instead? They'll at least have different mass/stiffness properties.

      I should have explained it better, I don't believe belts are causing resonance issues, the belts simply allow the vibrations to travel from the motor to the other parts of the machine instead of staying isolated to just the motor vibrating. If the belts themselves were sources of vibration you'd expect the frequency of the noise to change with varying belt tensions or lengths, which is is the opposite of what I am observing.

      Just as an fyi, I am using 9mm proper gates belts on 20T pulleys

      Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
      Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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        Kolbi @Nxt-1
        last edited by 6 Sept 2020, 20:22

        @Nxt-1 What is the loading range of the mounts you are using in the pic? IMO they seem way too rigid - they do not yield enough elasticity to absorb the vibration energy for this application. That is if the vibration energy is emitting from the motor itself.

        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 7 Sept 2020, 09:39 Reply Quote 0
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          Nxt-1 @Kolbi
          last edited by 7 Sept 2020, 09:39

          @Kolbi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

          @Nxt-1 What is the loading range of the mounts you are using in the pic? IMO they seem way too rigid - they do not yield enough elasticity to absorb the vibration energy for this application. That is if the vibration energy is emitting from the motor itself.

          Sadly hard to say, I picked them up from a local hardware store and they were specified as 'damper, type B', no more no less. I agree, due to the compact size the isn't really that much room for flexing rubber, so they are stiffer than I'd have wanted. On the other hand, from my test without the belt, I can conclude they do their job. Otherwise the vibrations would still travel trough the rubber into the frame, which wasn't the case.

          Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
          Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • undefined
            Nxt-1
            last edited by 7 Sept 2020, 12:06

            Finally some good news! 🙂

            Yesterday evening I decided to try the inertial damper route. Someone linked it before in this thread and it's basically a high rotational inertia disk that you bolt on the stepper shaft. The added inertia functions similar to a smoothing capacitor in electronics and smooths down the riple, in this case of the vibrations caused by the motor.

            Because I didn't have the time (nor the budget to just try) to get the real stuff from Oriental, I designed a very simple DIY intermediate. With lead disks and a printer cover to keep them in place. While it certainly is DIY 🙂 it provides a night and day difference. I will most likely order the proper ones this week.
            2020-09-07 09.25.19.jpg

            Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
            Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

            undefined undefined 2 Replies Last reply 7 Sept 2020, 13:06 Reply Quote 1
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              arhi @Nxt-1
              last edited by 7 Sept 2020, 13:06

              @Nxt-1 aren't those supposed to slip?

              undefined 1 Reply Last reply 7 Sept 2020, 13:19 Reply Quote 0
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                Nxt-1 @arhi
                last edited by 7 Sept 2020, 13:19

                @arhi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                @Nxt-1 aren't those supposed to slip?

                Examining what little documents I can find on the proper dampers that could very well be the case. And I see it making sense to smooth movement while continuously turning, yet not hindering acceleration/jerk.

                I don't think that level of performance is going to happen with what I just build here though, it's either all slip or no slip 🙂

                I just placed an order for 3 of the proper ones from Oriental so we'll find out more soon enough I guess 🙂

                Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                undefined undefined 2 Replies Last reply 7 Sept 2020, 15:00 Reply Quote 0
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                  arhi @Nxt-1
                  last edited by 7 Sept 2020, 15:00

                  @Nxt-1

                  https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/17007/fly-wheel-on-stepper-motor

                  https://www.cnczone.com/forums/stepper-motors-drives/30941-making-harmonic-dampers-flywheel-motors.html

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
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                    Kolbi @Nxt-1
                    last edited by 7 Sept 2020, 20:01

                    @Nxt-1 said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                    find out more soon enough

                    Hope it goes well, I was wondering how those would be in regards to acceleration and jerk.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                      theruttmeister @Nxt-1
                      last edited by 8 Sept 2020, 16:41

                      @Nxt-1
                      I'm curious to see the numbers once you have three installed. I would expect that you can still get the motors to vibrate, but the dampers are probably shifting that frequency to a place you'll never get to...

                      I'm also curious if they make a difference to print quality.

                      Isolate, substitute, verify.

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                      • undefined
                        Kolbi
                        last edited by 8 Sept 2020, 19:42

                        @Nxt-1, I just had an idea on determining your motor vibration emission, not sure on how effective though.
                        If you cut the current down by ~75% it should decrease the intensity of motor generated vibrations while the movement (drive train) generated vibrations would stay the same. This could let you know what to expect with the installation of the rotational dampers / help separate the two possible offending sources.

                        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 8 Sept 2020, 19:53 Reply Quote 0
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                          Nxt-1 @Kolbi
                          last edited by 8 Sept 2020, 19:53

                          @Kolbi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                          @Nxt-1, I just had an idea on determining your motor vibration emission, not sure on how effective though.
                          If you cut the current down by ~75% it should decrease the intensity of motor generated vibrations while the movement (drive train) generated vibrations would stay the same. This could let you know what to expect with the installation of the rotational dampers / help separate the two possible offending sources.

                          This is what I am doing at the moment to keep the noise levels down whenever I want to. It's a far from ideal solution but quite effective. Further reinforcing my point that the motors are the major source if not the only real source.

                          Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                          Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                          undefined 1 Reply Last reply 19 Sept 2020, 19:14 Reply Quote 0
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                            Kolbi @Nxt-1
                            last edited by 19 Sept 2020, 19:14

                            @Nxt-1 Did you make any progress with the Oriental clean dampers?

                            undefined 1 Reply Last reply 19 Sept 2020, 20:05 Reply Quote 0
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                              Nxt-1 @Kolbi
                              last edited by 19 Sept 2020, 20:05

                              @Kolbi Define progress, I am 2/3's of the way through waiting for them to be shipped 😞 Oriental is disappointingly slow this time around, the expected shipping date is the 24th

                              Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                              Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                              undefined 1 Reply Last reply 19 Sept 2020, 20:10 Reply Quote 0
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                                Kolbi @Nxt-1
                                last edited by 19 Sept 2020, 20:10

                                @Nxt-1 Ug, that sucks.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                                  Nxt-1
                                  last edited by 28 Sept 2020, 15:32

                                  Finally some decent news, the dampers arrived as predicted on the 25th. Installation was quick and easy, two setscrews and done. On thing that I noticed right away is that they are light, the datasheets specs them at 61g. Compared to the ~300-400g of lead I had on there before, that's absolutely nothing. This made my quite hesitant as to there performance.

                                  Yet after some first moves I can say that the dampers do not disappoint. Not a magical noise reducer by any means but they definitely take the edge off and bring the noise down to something acceptable. I need to do some more testing but at this point I'd say they are worth ~€120 for a set.
                                  2020-09-28 17.30.10.jpg

                                  At this point I still plan to have the motor brackets machined out of steel, but for a number of reasons (including cost) that will have to wait for a while. What I do want to try out soon-ish is removing the stepper face dampers again. Just to see what would happen.

                                  Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                                  Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                                  undefined 1 Reply Last reply 1 Oct 2020, 16:44 Reply Quote 1
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                                    theruttmeister
                                    last edited by 28 Sept 2020, 16:44

                                    Nice.

                                    (filler text).

                                    Isolate, substitute, verify.

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                                      Kolbi @Nxt-1
                                      last edited by 1 Oct 2020, 16:44

                                      @Nxt-1, now that you've had the mechanical clean dampers on for a bit, have you observed any print quality effects?

                                      undefined 1 Reply Last reply 6 Oct 2020, 20:54 Reply Quote 0
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                                        Nxt-1 @Kolbi
                                        last edited by 6 Oct 2020, 20:54

                                        @Kolbi said in Battling sources of vibration and noise:

                                        @Nxt-1, now that you've had the mechanical clean dampers on for a bit, have you observed any print quality effects?

                                        I am sorry for the late reply, I have been and will continue to be limited on time for 3D printing stuff sadly. My opinion has not really changed since my last post. I have done some small prints now and then with the Duet running all out at 2.4A and the noise is acceptable. I still have to test without the face dampers and printing at the outer edges (so the carriages have to move faster) but I do not have a plan for when I am going to do that.

                                        In terms of actual print quality I see no difference. There were no real print quality issues to improve on anyway. If anything I'd expect increased ringing at corners due to the increased rotational inertia. Yet again the viscous clutch style internals of the dampers should combat that as much as possible.

                                        Duet3D and delta printer enthousiast. Buildlog
                                        Looking for Duet3D configuration support, check out Nxt-3D

                                        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 6 Oct 2020, 21:27 Reply Quote 1
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                                          Kolbi @Nxt-1
                                          last edited by 6 Oct 2020, 21:27

                                          @Nxt-1, thanks for the update - definitely interesting subject matter.

                                          Cheers,
                                          Kolbi

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