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    Duet 2 Mosfet switch off ringing

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    • Peter_Oundefined
      Peter_O @jens55
      last edited by

      @jens55 said in Duet 2 Mosfet switch off ringing:

      @peter_o said in Duet 2 Mosfet switch off ringing:

      You talked 'differential' mode earlier and here you are talking single probe. If you connected the scope ground lead to one side of the fan, unless your scope is running on battery power and not connected to AC or grounded any other way, you can cause all manor of havoc.

      Yes, thanks for giving the warning. I've learned that from Daves Eevblog videos.

      Sorry, that I didn't write this clear enough:
      I used a diffentical probe with resistor chains and amplifier. (Micsig DP 10007)

      As dc42 suggests, the proper way of doing the measurement is referenced against the Duet ground.

      See last post. That is now standard x10 probe.

      Also since the Duet switches the ground line, that introduces some unexpected things in your measurements and you really need to be aware of what is happening.

      N-type mosfets, yes. That was the reason for me to use a "real" differential probe except for the last two shots. Sorry for not clarifying this enough.

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • dc42undefined
        dc42 administrators @Peter_O
        last edited by

        @peter_o, thanks. It looks to me that your fan has no input capacitor at all and doesn't like PWM. It may look better if you connect a 0.1uF capacitor in parallel with the fan.

        Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
        Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
        http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

        Peter_Oundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • Peter_Oundefined
          Peter_O @dc42
          last edited by Peter_O

          @dc42

          Yes it's one of these cheap 50mm blowers often used in chinese style 3d printers.

          (Sometimes I write for the german hobbyists 3d print forum, e.g. [https://drucktipps3d.de/duet-2-erste-eindruecke/]. That's the main reason, why I'm nerding into things like this, to gain a better understanding. The forum community is using low cost components. It's not that easy to convince them to use higher quality components like premium fans or duet boards. 😉 )

          I've added a 100nF and now it looks like this, again with a changing pattern:

          alt text

          alt text

          Peter_Oundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • Peter_Oundefined
            Peter_O @Peter_O
            last edited by Peter_O

            I'll try some different capacitor values on my cheap lab setup to avoid overloading the duet's mosfet and will come back with the best result.

            Thx so far, dc42 and all for spending the time!

            jens55undefined dc42undefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • jens55undefined
              jens55 @Peter_O
              last edited by

              Amazing difference for 100 nF !

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • dc42undefined
                dc42 administrators @Peter_O
                last edited by

                @peter_o said in Duet 2 Mosfet switch off ringing:

                I'll try some different capacitor values on my cheap lab setup to avoid overloading the duet's mosfet and will come back with the best result.

                Thx so far, dc42 and all for spending the time!

                Don't make it too large, or you will increase power dissipation in the mosfet.

                Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                Peter_Oundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Peter_Oundefined
                  Peter_O @dc42
                  last edited by

                  For convenience I used an arduino setup with an IRF3708 mosfet in my "lab2".
                  Measurement with the differential probe over the fan.

                  First the same blower as above with 0.1µF again.
                  It's a different mosfet, but the pattern ist exactly the same. Changing bewtween patterns:

                  alt text

                  alt text

                  Same setup with 0.47µF
                  Quite some switching time. I understand your warning, @dc42.

                  alt text

                  alt text

                  A Sunon Maglev 40mm fan without capacitor is not behaving better.
                  alt text

                  Sunon Maglev with 0.1µF

                  alt text

                  alt text

                  Sunon Maglev with 0.47µF

                  alt text

                  alt text

                  My conclusion: A more premium fan shows the same problem.
                  And a capacitor can improve the situation, but seems not to solve it completely.
                  Thanks for the tip, @dc42!

                  If there are no other ideas, I will leave it with that for now and do some experiments on breadboards with an optocoupler in front of the gate to have 12V avaiable for the gate. Of course this would be no solution for a given 3D printer board.

                  alankilianundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • alankilianundefined
                    alankilian @Peter_O
                    last edited by

                    @peter_o said in Duet 2 Mosfet switch off ringing:

                    Measurement with the differential probe over the fan.

                    What kind of signal are you expecting to see with a differential probe over the fan when the MOSFET turns off?

                    The fan will be as we say "Hanging in the breeze" with a connection to VPOWER+ on one end and the other end will have no connection anywhere so the fan coils will be able to boing all over the place if they want to. That doesn't mean the fan is going to turn on and off at all, just that the flying-free voltage on this disconnected fan is boinging around a lot.

                    What do you want to see under these conditions?

                    SeemeCNC Rostock Max V3 converted to V3.2 with a Duet2 Ethernet Firmware 3.2 and SE300

                    Peter_Oundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Peter_Oundefined
                      Peter_O @alankilian
                      last edited by

                      @alankilian

                      Ok. I see. That's a strong argument indeed. Thx.

                      The argument should be the same, when measuring the "Fan -" Pin vs. GND with a standard probe and high impedance oscilloscope setting.

                      On the other hand I remember, that these effects vanished, when I used a cheap external mosfet board with optocouplers. Have to go back and check and look into that schematics.
                      I will fiddle around some time the next days and take your argument into account. Maybe I gain some more understanding. The electronics beginner I am. 🙂

                      zaptaundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • zaptaundefined
                        zapta @Peter_O
                        last edited by

                        @peter_o said in Duet 2 Mosfet switch off ringing:

                        these effects vanished, when I used a cheap external mosfet board with optocouplers.

                        Are you sure that that board had an open drain configuration with no additional components attached to the mosfet's Drain pin? Having additional components such as the resistor/diode in the diagram below may suppress voltage changes by the fan when the mosfet is off.

                        2b20d3b5-5f80-4c0a-abbc-13506948c2fc-image.png

                        Peter_Oundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Peter_Oundefined
                          Peter_O @zapta
                          last edited by Peter_O

                          @zapta

                          Quite sure. The schematics of the Duet 2 seem to be basic:
                          https://github.com/Duet3D/Duet-2-Hardware/blob/master/Duet2/Duet2v1.04/Duet2_1.04c_Schematic.pdf

                          No gate driver as in your example.

                          @alankilian

                          Alan, in addition to my last post I think we can see cases within my screenshots, where the inductance effects of the motor are high enough to trigger the gate again and swith the mosfet on for some time. That would be a little more than just flapping around.

                          dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • dc42undefined
                            dc42 administrators @Peter_O
                            last edited by

                            @peter_o, 2-wire fans were never intended to work with PWM. So it's a minor miracle that some of them do, and it's no surprise that they generate strange transients when you PWM them.

                            The ringing of this type of circuit can be controlled to some extent by adjusting the turn-off time of the mosfet. On Duet 2 and Duet 3 this turn off time is controlled by the value of the mosfet gate series resistor. The choice is a compromise. A high value gate resistor leads to a slow turn-off and turn-on, which increases the power dissipation in the mosfet. A low value gives fast turn-on and turn-off, but that may excite ringing in the load (if it is inductive) and generate EMI.

                            Opto isolators are slow unless used carefully; so your mosfet switch probably has a slow turn-off time. If it's a large mosfet driving a small load such as a fan, it will be able to handle the increased power dissipation.

                            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                            Peter_Oundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Peter_Oundefined
                              Peter_O @dc42
                              last edited by

                              Hi @dc42 ,
                              thanks for the explanaitions and your time!

                              So, if I would insist in bringing that EMI away, I should probably use a 4 wire fan.
                              Otherwise it's just the way 2 wire fans are kind of running by PWM and I should come to terms with it.

                              BTW: I never had any doubt, that the duet boards are carefully optimized designs. It's just abount gaining some small understanding on my side.

                              Thx again! 🙂

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