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    Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.

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    • hestiahuangundefined
      hestiahuang @dc42
      last edited by

      @dc42 said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

      @siam said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

      Short feedback from my side, the problem is not solved 😞

      The Result from the pid tuning with RFF 3.4.b6:
      M307 H0 R0.460 C286.278:286.278 D0.90 S1.00 V24.3 B0 I0

      and the result from PID tuning with RRF 3.4.b7:
      M307 H0 R0.484 K0.438:0.000 D0.85 E1.35 S1.00 B0

      and the error:
      Error: Heater 0 fault: temperature rising too slowly: expected 0.43°C/sec measured 0.19°C/sec

      Please post the temperature plot while heating up the bed, to help me diagnose this.

      Want to confirm that, the same printer with different firmware, such as rrf and klipper, no issue on klipper

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • hestiahuangundefined
        hestiahuang @dc42
        last edited by

        @dc42 said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

        @siam said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

        Short feedback from my side, the problem is not solved 😞

        The Result from the pid tuning with RFF 3.4.b6:
        M307 H0 R0.460 C286.278:286.278 D0.90 S1.00 V24.3 B0 I0

        and the result from PID tuning with RRF 3.4.b7:
        M307 H0 R0.484 K0.438:0.000 D0.85 E1.35 S1.00 B0

        and the error:
        Error: Heater 0 fault: temperature rising too slowly: expected 0.43°C/sec measured 0.19°C/sec

        Please post the temperature plot while heating up the bed, to help me diagnose this.

        For the bed heater case above, it is very normal that take 5~10mins to heat the bed from around 20°C to around 80°C, (80°C-20°C) / 0.19°C/sec /60sec/min=5.26min. So I think 'the quick factor' is good to apply to tools heater but not for bed heater.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • dc42undefined
          dc42 administrators @SIam
          last edited by

          @siam thanks for the video, that's really helpful.

          What I suspect is happening is that your bed heater has a high thermal mass (e.g. aluminium plate) and the thermistor is embedded in the heater, not in good contact with the plate. Does that describe your bed heater? This makes the long-term heating behaviour very different from the short-term behaviour. The current tuning algorithm measures the short term behaviour, because that is what is required for computing suitable PID parameters.

          Please can you do a video of the heater being tuned, so that I can see the complete temperature graph during the tuning process.

          As a workaround until I have a solution, if you reduce the R parameter in the M307 command by 30%, that should be sufficient to avoid getting heater faults.

          Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
          Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
          http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

          dc42undefined hestiahuangundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • dc42undefined
            dc42 administrators @dc42
            last edited by

            @siam @hestiahuang please try the firmware build at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ubjszy9fmlvzwu/AAAeOMGP-Yi-Gn9LZwQoPfita?dl=0.

            Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
            Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
            http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

            Gixxerfastundefined SIamundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • Gixxerfastundefined
              Gixxerfast @dc42
              last edited by

              @dc42 I wasn't addressed but I tried it anyway since I was having problems but with this version it heated up without any errors. Absolutely perfect. Before, with b7 I would have had three errors before reaching target temp. Thanks!

              50f0e705-761f-47c6-8135-88117ec0891b-image.png

              Voron V2.4 (#1317) with Duet 3 Mini5+ Wifi and 1LC v1.1 Toolboard
              Voron V0.1 (#637) with Duet 3 Mini 5+ Wifi and 1LC v1.2 Toolboard
              Ender 3 Pro with BTT SKR-2 + RRF

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • NikAundefined
                NikA
                last edited by

                I also have this problem and noticed that the difference is double (or half) of what is expected.
                tuning again and again did not change much, but it looks like you're already fixing the problem 🙂

                I have a suggestion: could you add a feature that makes it possible to zoom in on the temperature chart (as in temporarily increase the window size or open in a new window)?
                The way it currently is makes it impossible to see small changes, but I would be interested in seeing them.
                I think it would make it possible to see changes when feeding too fast or having air flow etc

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                • SIamundefined
                  SIam @dc42
                  last edited by

                  @dc42 I have tested the new firmware, thanks for this! Now the PID-Tuning takes a long time (over a half hour) and after this I get now a warning;

                  pidwarning.png

                  If I use this PID settings to heat up my bed, I still get the heater fault
                  Error: Heater 0 fault: temperature rising too slowly: expected 0.34°C/sec measured 0.11°C/sec

                  I have recorded the PID Tuning and you can view this long video under:

                  https://kleinersonnenschein.eu/video/pidtuning_3.4.b7+1.mp4

                  I hope this will help you when you need more tests then let me know

                  But first I wish you and the whole great duet team a merry Christmas, thanks for your hard work!

                  Hypercube-Evolution-Hybrid, Piezo Orion, Orbiter
                  Duet WiFi 1.02 or later + DueX5
                  RepRapFirmware for Duet 2 WiFi/Ethernet 3.4.0beta4 (2021-09-27 11:30:36)
                  Duet WiFi Server: 1.26
                  Duet Web Control 3.4.0beta4 (2021-09-27)

                  Phaedruxundefined SIamundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • Phaedruxundefined
                    Phaedrux Moderator @SIam
                    last edited by

                    @siam Perhaps I've asked this before in another thread, but can you show/describe what your bed assembly is like?

                    Z-Bot CoreXY Build | Thingiverse Profile

                    SIamundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • SIamundefined
                      SIam @SIam
                      last edited by

                      I forget to answer your question

                      What I suspect is happening is that your bed heater has a high thermal mass (e.g. aluminium plate)

                      My Alu plate is 420 x 420 x 8 mm

                      and the thermistor is embedded in the heater,not in good contact with the plate.

                      yes it is

                      Does that describe your bed heater?

                      yes

                      As a workaround until I have a solution, if you reduce the R parameter in the M307 command by 30%, that should be sufficient to avoid getting heater faults.

                      I haven't test with 30% at the moment, I reduce it to 50% and this works for now

                      Hypercube-Evolution-Hybrid, Piezo Orion, Orbiter
                      Duet WiFi 1.02 or later + DueX5
                      RepRapFirmware for Duet 2 WiFi/Ethernet 3.4.0beta4 (2021-09-27 11:30:36)
                      Duet WiFi Server: 1.26
                      Duet Web Control 3.4.0beta4 (2021-09-27)

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • SIamundefined
                        SIam @Phaedrux
                        last edited by

                        @phaedrux The structure of the heating plate is as follows :

                        First the Alu plate with 420 x420 x 8 mm

                        Then this silicone heatbed :
                        https://de.aliexpress.com/item/32612060131.html?spm=a2g0o.9042311.0.0.27424c4daTA4uh
                        With 220V / 500W
                        and under this I have a cork plate for isolation.

                        Hypercube-Evolution-Hybrid, Piezo Orion, Orbiter
                        Duet WiFi 1.02 or later + DueX5
                        RepRapFirmware for Duet 2 WiFi/Ethernet 3.4.0beta4 (2021-09-27 11:30:36)
                        Duet WiFi Server: 1.26
                        Duet Web Control 3.4.0beta4 (2021-09-27)

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                        • joekoundefined
                          joeko @SIam
                          last edited by

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                          • hestiahuangundefined
                            hestiahuang @dc42
                            last edited by hestiahuang

                            @dc42 said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

                            @siam thanks for the video, that's really helpful.

                            What I suspect is happening is that your bed heater has a high thermal mass (e.g. aluminium plate) and the thermistor is embedded in the heater, not in good contact with the plate. Does that describe your bed heater? This makes the long-term heating behaviour very different from the short-term behaviour. The current tuning algorithm measures the short term behaviour, because that is what is required for computing suitable PID parameters.

                            Please can you do a video of the heater being tuned, so that I can see the complete temperature graph during the tuning process.

                            As a workaround until I have a solution, if you reduce the R parameter in the M307 command by 30%, that should be sufficient to avoid getting heater faults.

                            Tested beta7+2 today, issue is still on my printer. I read the code change and found there is some tuning, I still have to change to 0.2. From the heat chart, it needs to take more than 10 minutes to heat from 50°C to 100°C
                            0bbbeb73-5476-4d90-81fa-be470b094885-image.png c6077e01-2552-4f5b-849d-f3e1940371ca-image.png
                            fcd5ab19-f97b-479b-8058-e69ee7dc5de5-image.png

                            hestiahuangundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • hestiahuangundefined
                              hestiahuang @hestiahuang
                              last edited by

                              @hestiahuang said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

                              @dc42 said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

                              @siam thanks for the video, that's really helpful.

                              What I suspect is happening is that your bed heater has a high thermal mass (e.g. aluminium plate) and the thermistor is embedded in the heater, not in good contact with the plate. Does that describe your bed heater? This makes the long-term heating behaviour very different from the short-term behaviour. The current tuning algorithm measures the short term behaviour, because that is what is required for computing suitable PID parameters.

                              Please can you do a video of the heater being tuned, so that I can see the complete temperature graph during the tuning process.

                              As a workaround until I have a solution, if you reduce the R parameter in the M307 command by 30%, that should be sufficient to avoid getting heater faults.

                              Tested beta7+2 today, issue is still on my printer. I read the code change and found there is some tuning, I still have to change to 0.2. From the heat chart, it needs to take more than 10 minutes to heat from 50°C to 100°C
                              0bbbeb73-5476-4d90-81fa-be470b094885-image.png c6077e01-2552-4f5b-849d-f3e1940371ca-image.png
                              fcd5ab19-f97b-479b-8058-e69ee7dc5de5-image.png

                              I don't have time to test and tune the parameter, just give 0.2 temporary

                              dc42undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • dc42undefined
                                dc42 administrators @hestiahuang
                                last edited by

                                @hestiahuang if the expected heating rate is 0.42degC/sec and actual is 0.14 then any value below 0.14/0.42 = 0.333 should work. I'll change it to 0.3 in the next build.

                                Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                hestiahuangundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • hestiahuangundefined
                                  hestiahuang @dc42
                                  last edited by

                                  @dc42 said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

                                  @hestiahuang if the expected heating rate is 0.42degC/sec and actual is 0.14 then any value below 0.14/0.42 = 0.333 should work. I'll change it to 0.3 in the next build.

                                  Many thanks for your explanation. Suggest that we can keep some buffers.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • hestiahuangundefined
                                    hestiahuang @dc42
                                    last edited by

                                    @dc42 said in Heater fault on heated bed because it's rising to slow.:

                                    @hestiahuang if the expected heating rate is 0.42degC/sec and actual is 0.14 then any value below 0.14/0.42 = 0.333 should work. I'll change it to 0.3 in the next build.

                                    Tested base on today's version. Thank you very much! Seem 0.2 is better to me.☕
                                    6232b882-cff8-4d4e-9abb-fe32b4600dfe-image.png
                                    f5e46212-18a2-44ef-a67b-aee71d728691-image.png

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