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    Pressure advance input from instrument measurement

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    • Urbanundefined
      Urban
      last edited by Urban

      @adavidm The sensors you link to has a temperature limit off around 200C due to the fact that they are based on silicon. For higher temperatures GaNi (Gallium Nitride - also used for LED's) sensors would increase the temperature, but a few years ago (hmm... maybe ten years ago) they where only on research level. For some injection moulding machines Mercury is used to carry the pressure to a colder place where they can be measured with the sensors like the ones you linked to.

      nopheadundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • nopheadundefined
        nophead @Urban
        last edited by

        @urban how do they account for the relatively large expansion of the mercury due to the heat?

        I was thinking of perhaps a stiff diaphragm with a plate near to it to form a variable capacitor. The second plate could be attached to something cold with air in between, so nothing to expand with the heat.

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        • Urbanundefined
          Urban
          last edited by Urban

          @dc42 As I understand it Pressure Advance is a linear compensation.

          1. From the first curve one can see that for high temperatures the curve will go through origo. For lower temperatures there would be an offset. Shouldn't Pressure Advance have the form a+bx?
          2. They are also temperature dependent. Then there need to be a temperature component in the formula as well. I have found that a Bi-Cubic formula can approximate this fairly well.

          The formula

          0_1541695909351_59326e6e-b579-452e-b768-3045620c3d46-image.png

          The graph where the doted lines are from the formula and the solid lines from measurement

          0_1541695935696_0a954e43-d1fb-498c-b730-54fa3d0b0d34-image.png

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • Urbanundefined
            Urban
            last edited by

            @nophead I don't know how thermal expansion is handled, but I suspect it is water cooled. My work was with the GaNi sensors.

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            • Urbanundefined
              Urban
              last edited by Urban

              @brunofporto I have done some dynamic measurements, mostly with the intent to study retract.

              0_1541696483171_f63d4f78-07f5-44fb-bf3c-e8c89a9714e1-image.png

              The graph shows three repeated tests. I don't remember the exact settings.

              1. The graph starts with an S-curve type acceleration. The hotted was primed a few minutes before the test.
              2. The force build up to close to 8N initially
              3. The force is reduced once everything gets going
              4. The retract takes place and the force is reduced to -1 N. This is the holding force and independent of how much you retract it will not be lower. I think this is caused by plastic deformation of warm filament near the heat break. 1N is the force you get for all filaments I have tested.
              5. The plastic deformation relaxes the force to zero in less than a second.
              6. The force build quickly after the un-retract when the retract state have been for one second. The un-retract length was the same as the retract length.

              The waviness you can see in curves from 4-10s (peak to peak around 1 s) are caused by the gears in the planetary gear used in the extruder.

              The very smal jitter in the curve is the full steps of the stepper. I use a Trinamic with 16 micro steps and interpolation to 256 micro steps.

              nopheadundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
              • gmedlicottundefined
                gmedlicott
                last edited by

                Great info on nozzle pressure vs temperature and feed rate. So at 250'C you can feed almost 5x as fast as at 210'C for the same nozzle pressure (with your configuration of course)!

                On your dynamic graph, a correctly set pressure advance constant will shift the linear rising pressure slope, but won't cure the post-rise excess pressure overshoot I don't think. For that, a different algorithm would be needed.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • nopheadundefined
                  nophead @Urban
                  last edited by

                  @urban The ripple due to gearing is a shock. I thought involute gears are supposed to be constant velocity. I have often wondered if a timing belt drive would be better as it has less backlash and probably more constant velocity.

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                  • deckingmanundefined
                    deckingman @nophead
                    last edited by

                    @nophead said in Pressure advance input from instrument measurement:

                    .........................
                    It would be great to be able to measure the pressure at the nozzle. ..................

                    This is something that I have given a lot of thought to over the years. One way would be to use a Diamond hot end but only feed filaments into two of the inputs and fit a transducer into the third input. Sadly, I don't have the resources (financial or otherwise) to pursue this.

                    Ian
                    https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                    https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

                    brunofportoundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • brunofportoundefined
                      brunofporto @deckingman
                      last edited by brunofporto

                      @deckingman I think the main problem is the price of the pressure sensor that can handle that temperature. It renders this method, of measuring pushing force right at the hotend, a very nice approach!

                      It is measuring pressure after all, with a little friction but... it just needs to correlate with the nozzle area 😄

                      deckingmanundefined nopheadundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • deckingmanundefined
                        deckingman @brunofporto
                        last edited by

                        @brunofporto said in Pressure advance input from instrument measurement:

                        @deckingman I think the main problem is the price of the pressure sensor that can handle that temperature. ..............................................

                        Yes, absolutely. Many years ago, I worked for an engineering consultancy and we were measuring pressures in real time inside the combustion chambers of internal combustion engines. I think I'd have to sell my house to buy the equipment we were using. ☺

                        Ian
                        https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/
                        https://www.youtube.com/@deckingman

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                        • nopheadundefined
                          nophead @brunofporto
                          last edited by

                          @brunofporto The problem is it isn't a little friction. I can easily dominate the force with PLA because it is not very viscous but it is very rubbery past its glass transition and creates a lot of friction like a tyre.

                          If we could measure the pressure in the melt chamber accurately and in real time we could create a servo loop.

                          brunofportoundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • brunofportoundefined
                            brunofporto @nophead
                            last edited by

                            @nophead Sure - a nice masters or phd thesis to go for 😄

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                            • T3P3Tonyundefined
                              T3P3Tony administrators @adavidm
                              last edited by

                              @adavidm the sensor you linked could work for this application in an appropriately modified hotend:

                              https://www.kistler.com/?type=669&fid=75071&model=document

                              0_1541857468388_3901b699-ea19-4bb6-893d-f2660e7ed641-image.png

                              Sensor face exposed to the molten plastic @ <450C but the remainder insulated from the heater block. Only practical for testing but still it could be an option.

                              www.duet3d.com

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • stewwyundefined
                                stewwy
                                last edited by

                                One way of lowering the temperature would be to fill a heatbreak with very low melting point solder and put a diaphragm of silicone at each end, that would bring the temp down at the measuring point. you would need to work out a correction factor though.

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