Microswiss settings?



  • Hi *,

    I installed a microswiss to my CR10s pro v2 yesterday, this is my very first all metal hotend. Well I have expected that it will be a plug and play replacement, the reality proved me wrong. The prints look very bad now, support is part of the main part now, the extruder skips steps from time to time. I played a bit with the retraction, that helped me with the step skipping but it still produces a lot of mess on the bed.

    Has somebody some parameters or know how to share?
    Thanks....

    Cheers, Chriss



  • Only thing I had to do with my Ender-5 when I installed a Micro-Swiss All Metal Hotend was rerun the PID tuning. It used the same thermistor and same heater cartridge, but had a different nozzle/heater block/throat/cold zone so I figured it'd be a good idea to re-tune the PID with the new hotend.

    Beyond that, I didn't have to change anything else. Even my retraction stayed the same until I fitted the E3D titan as a direct drive.



  • @PDBeal

    Hmmmm... Hmmmm... I tuned the PID and the results look a bit better now. I guess that I need some more testing here. Thanks for the tip with the PID. I guess that I started on the wrong site. 😉

    Cheers, Chriss



  • I find this guide on all metal hotends pretty useful.



  • @oliof Tnk you very much! That seems very helpfully to me. A lot of content, I will go though it, let's see how my setup ends up than. The current prints are still very ugly, so there are couple of setting wrong.

    ProTip: Do not change your current printer when you need it for the construction of your new printer. 😞

    Cheers, Chriss



  • @Chriss said in Microswiss settings?:

    ProTip: Do not change your current printer when you need it for the construction of your new printer.

    Been there, done that, got another printer (-;



  • I hate it......

    IMG_20200620_132258.jpg

    😞 That is the perfect start for a very, very long long journey. 🤢



  • is that a tool steel nozzle? That has it's own set of annoyances compared to brass ones ...



  • Yea, I had a lot of stringy issues with the hardened tool steel nozzle on the Micro Swiss All Metal Hotend. I ended up going back with the brass nozzle on my Ender-5 until I figure out why the tool steel one caused all sort of bed adhesion issues.



  • @oliof

    I do not think that this is a steel nozzle. The kit is laying here around since a couple of month, so I'm not 100% sure. But the kits, they sell at my usual suppliers, list the nozzles as "Brass Plated Wear Resistant MK8 .4mm Nozzle", so my educated guess is that we speak about a brass nozzle here.

    Tuned the "E-steps" before that print. I will play a bit with the temperatures, lets see if I will get better results when I start from scratch.

    @PDBeal
    I have no adhesion issues, luckily. I think it is more a problem with the temperature vs. the cooling.

    Cheers, Chriss



  • @Chriss If it was brass plated, it would be brass coloured. But regardless of that, even if it is brass plated, that plating would be very thin and if it's wear resistant, that would indicate it's made from hardened steel which is a relatively poor conductor. I recently did an investigation on what happens inside a nozzle with just deflected part cooling air (not directly blowing over the nozzle) and the effect on steel nozzles was alarming (nearly 40 deg C temperature drop). https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2020/05/21/the-effect-of-deflected-part-cooling-air-on-brass-and-steel-nozzle-temperatures/

    So I would suggest you try with brass nozzle, and/or turn off or drastically reduce any part cooling.



  • Have you got it installed correctly?

    By that I mean have you got the heat block wound onto the heat break so that the nozzle is not wound all the way home and seated hard against the heat block. It needs to be that there is a bit of thread showing between the nozzle hex and the heat block, so you know the nozzle threaded end is "snugged up" against the heat break inside the heat block.

    You also need to tighten the nozzle while the hot end is heated up, very important.

    I'm sorry if you know that already, but there's something grossly wrong to give you that result, so you really need to go back through the basics like esteps, temps, extrusion ratio and retraction. Too much retraction can give you issues with an all metal hot end too, so you might want to start at 1mm for an ender/bowden setup and expect to end up at 3-5mm at 30mm/sec.

    Another point could well be the heat break fan....you definitely want that running when the hot end is over 50 degC.

    If you have the standard ender (ie crap) bowden fittings, you may have had one fail...look for the tube moving in/out with retractions, which is bad. The bowden tube has to be held firm at both ends, and Creality's tube fittings are known to fail.

    Please excuse me if I sound like I'm telling "my father how to *&$#", but you've got a fundamental issue very wrong to be getting those messy prints.



  • @deckingman

    From my understanding is the material brass:
    "This is MK8 style nozzle, it is made from a 360 brass base material and plated with TwinClad XT coating. TwinClad XT is a nickel composite coating designed for very low friction. "
    https://store.micro-swiss.com/collections/nozzles/products/mk8

    I'm a bit confused that the behavior, compared with the stock hotend, is so dramatically different.
    Thanks for the link, I will take some time to read and understand it. 😉

    @Corexy
    I hope that I have installed it correctly. But yes, is is clear that the "neck" have to be tightened first. In short words: The air gab needs to be between the block and the nozzle to make sure that the "neck" and the nozzle are tight.

    No no, I it is very good to start from ground up. I'm in my bubble right now, so it makes sense to start from scratch.

    I learned in a former thread that I had to put far more head on the stock hotend (PLA 230°C) and I reduced the fan to 60%. That worked very well.

    Short checklist:
    The bowden is tight (no more original fitting)
    Extruder: Bondtech
    E-Steps calibrated (Stock Hotend: E409.51 Microswiss: E431.06) :?
    Retraction: 8mm 20mm/s
    Temp: 230°C

    The good thing is that my firs layer sucks at the moment too. So I do not have to worry with cooling for now. 😉

    I will proceed with a "vase" for now to find working setting for the first layer before we end up her in the complete wrong direction.

    And to be honest: I was not sooooo unhappy with the stock hotend. So I can go back in the worst case. I can take care of that bugger as soon as my corexy is working... Building a printer without a working printer is a bad idea.

    Cheers, Chriss



  • OMG! I'm a bloody noob.... 😞 I think that my main problem was the nozzle..... Let's me phrase it as: "The nozzle needed one more turn." 😞

    IMG_20200621_175406.jpg

    Still not optimal, but far better than before, don't you think so? 😉

    (230°C fan 60%)

    Cheers, Chriss



  • I had also massive issues when upgrading to a Mosquito hotend with Bondtech extruder. It took me a a lot of tests to get rid of stringing. In the end two simple things did it: extrusion multiplier (carefully change it - ony per .1 steps) and I had to set extrusion width to fixed .4 mm.

    BTW: I personally think that 230°C is a little bit too much in case you're using PLA. That could also cause stringing. Lower it a little bit. For me 215°C turnbed out to be good (also with Micro Swiss which i had before).



  • @MartinNYHC said in Microswiss settings?:

    Yes, the 230°C came from the problem that the layers did not stick together: https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/16709/layers-do-not-stick-together

    But this problem was with the stock hotend, so let's see where I end up with the micro swiss.

    Thanks for the tip with the "extrusion multiplier" and "extrusion width", both where not on my radar till you mention them.

    I will tune the temperature and fan tomorrow, I will look at "extrusion multiplier" and "extrusion width" afterwards.

    Cheers, Chriss



  • OK,

    So my thoughts on that are that 230 is quite a bit too hot for PLA. I'm running about 200 on my Ender 3, with less fan too. Usually 10-20%.

    8mm is a LOT of retraction...Simplify 3D has 4mm @ 30mm/sec for the Ender 3 pro in their profile, and the CR10 is just a bigger Ender, so might pay to try that.

    I'd check those esteps again at 200 degC. Bondtech says 415 steps/mm, and I ended up at 417 or something like that. They are known for being consistent across different filaments, so I think you may be wide of the mark. When you measure your 100mm for a test, mark it at 120mm and then look for 20mm left after the test (more accurate). Extrude at 5mm sec for the test.

    Your first layer might just be a height issue. If you are using S3D, you can use Z offset in the Gcode section to raise/lower the nozzle a bit. It's really handy as you don't have to jerk around with that little micro switch, and you can have different subtle offsets for different material profiles. Of course you want the switch set within reason, but you can really dial it in with some offset. Negative makes it closer to the bed, positive further away. Use 0.05mm increments.

    I'm sure there's an equivalent in whatever slicer you use, but if you are new I'd strongly recommend to pay for S3D and use the "canned" profile for your machine.

    Do not confuse extrusion multiplier with your esteps...they are 2 different things. All the tests like measuring wall thickness etc can be a pain in the arse as well. The wall thickness is good, but then surfaces aren't. It's fickle, so you're really looking for a setting that works all round.

    Please refer the points above then try this:

    1. Recheck your nozzle is tight with the right gap while hot.
    2. Recheck your bowden fittings are installed correctly.
    3. Recheck your esteps, or even just set them at 415. Actually, start your test at 415. It should be close to that number.
    4. Level your bed and set nozzle height via the micro switch. Then run some sort of level/height test you'll see on Youtube like the "Shep" test. Use your Z offset to get it right.

    Then try the following settings in your slicer (assuming PLA and 0.4mm nozzle):

    Layer height 0.2mm. Layer width 0.5mm
    Temp. 205 first layer, then 195 after that.
    Fan. 0 first layer, 20% after that.
    Extrusion multiplier 0.95/95%
    Speed. 40mm/s. 50% for first layer.
    Retraction 4mm @ 30mm/sec.
    Try 1.5mm of coast, and -0.05 extra restart distance, which might help with your blobbing/stringing.

    I'd buy S3D and enter the CR10 profile to be honest.



  • I have a microswiss on a Ender 3 with Duet 3. I run 215C hot end and 60C bed for PLA. Make sure you tighten the nozzle TWICE. Once cold, once hot.

    230C is too hot from my experience and will make the nozzle ooze a lot and create stringing.

    Print a temp tower to be sure.



  • A friend did some extensive testing and PLA from 4043D resin prints good at 190-210, then terrible, then decently at 250-260 again. He prints miniatures with Prusament PLA at the high temps and those yield both a glossy finish and excellent layer adhesion.



  • @Thalios
    You are right and not. 😉 I had problems with layer attentions at 190-220°C with the stock hotend. So I went up till 230°C against my reflex and the prints where fine there. Anyway, the microswiss is a complete gamechanger here and I need to start from scratch with most of my settings.

    @oliof 250°C? Wow..... I think that I will test it, just for fun.... 😉

    Cheers, Chriss



  • Funny that...I've never even had an issue with layer adhesion at 200 with PLA. In fact my prints are strong, glossy and defined well. Of all the materials, I would have thought it actually hard to get layer separation with PLA, as it's strong and forgiving to print.

    Each to their own, but some of the numbers being mentioned here seem very hot for PLA.

    I try to use as cool a temp as possible, but with as little fan as possible too.

    alt text



  • @Corexy said in Microswiss settings?:

    Funny that...I've never had an issue with layer adhesion at 200 with PLA.

    I had.. and enough from them. Maybe a other problem? I should check the steps for Z. :?

    I try to use as cool a temp as possible, but with as little fan as possible too.

    Me too, simply for the fact that the printer stand next to me at my desks and teh fan is very loud. 😉

    https://i.imgur.com/Ugd7INZ.jpg

    Please stop posting print porn, you make me jealous. 😉

    What am I doing wrong with these imgur links, by the way? They used to work when I pasted them on here, but they don't seem to anymore.

    The link itself works, I think that you want to add the picture with

    ![alt text](image url)
    

    (Picture icon)

    Cheers, Chriss



  • @Chriss said in Microswiss settings?:

    @Corexy said in Microswiss settings?:

    Funny that...I've never had an issue with layer adhesion at 200 with PLA.

    I had.. and enough from them. Maybe a other problem? I should check the steps for Z. :?

    I try to use as cool a temp as possible, but with as little fan as possible too.

    Me too, simply for the fact that the printer stand next to me at my desks and teh fan is very loud. 😉

    https://i.imgur.com/Ugd7INZ.jpg

    Please stop posting print porn, you make me jealous. 😉

    What am I doing wrong with these imgur links, by the way? They used to work when I pasted them on here, but they don't seem to anymore.

    The link itself works, I think that you want to add the picture with

    ![alt text](image url)
    

    (Picture icon)

    Cheers, Chriss

    @Chriss

    I did take a long time typing up that advice for you, and when I looked at Oliof's link on metal hotends a lot of what I said was there anyway (wish I read it first before I did all that typing).

    There was even mention in that link that excessive retraction (which I'm almost positive you have) will lead to a clicking extruder, which you have described.

    Trying to help you here mate, but you can only lead a horse to water and you can't make him drink.

    Why not go through those steps one by one and get it going right?



  • @Corexy

    I really appreciate every input I can get. I understand that it is hard that not all of us have English as there native language and not everything is always communicated.

    Back to the "mission":
    What I did so far:
    I confirmed this morning that the e-steps are OK.
    I played a bit with the retraction and I'm at 1,5mm@30mm/s (not my current focus) Btw: The step skipping is gone since the PID auto-tuning. 😉
    I play with temperatures between 190 to 220 at the moment.

    I have some adhesion problems with the current setup right now. I'm more and more convinced that the change of the z-probe to a IR-Probe and the migration to a micro-swiss was not the best decision in my live. 😉 I will fix the relation between the z-probe and be bed (again) before I take any further care of the hotend. 😞

    The learning curve drives me nuts.

    Cheers, Chriss



  • If using the IR probe with a textured surface, you'll be fighting it all day long. I went with a smooth glass and it solved my issues.

    I have the direct drive microswiss kit and it works quite well. Kinda wish I went BL probe instead of IR though..


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