• Tags
  • Documentation
  • Order
  • Register
  • Login
Duet3D Logo Duet3D
  • Tags
  • Documentation
  • Order
  • Register
  • Login

Wavy surface problem.

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved
Duet Hardware and wiring
10
64
4.7k
Loading More Posts
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • undefined
    Egon.Net @Luke'sLaboratory
    last edited by 25 May 2021, 15:14

    @luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:

    have you run them through the EMF calculator? if you're driving them fast with low VMOT, they can get noisy as the stepper drivers are unable to deliver a smooth curve to the motors.

    Yes, I know it's normal for the steppers to be noise at high speed. My travel speed is 300mm/s, and they are as noisy as they are supposed to be at that speed at 24V. The problem is with more normalish speeds, like 50-60mm/s. I know it can be steppter's resonance, but only with this Moons' pair and a lowish current I've managed to tame it to acceptable noise, while with my other printer I have to look at bltouch light moving to be sure it's printing (it has older TMC plug-in chips and a crap 8 bit Marlin board).

    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 25 May 2021, 15:17 Reply Quote 0
    • undefined
      Luke'sLaboratory @Egon.Net
      last edited by 25 May 2021, 15:17

      @egon-net
      2660's aren't the quietest drivers, but it might be worth to check out per-motor register tuning? I'm thinking of the same as I can't seem to get my 60mm LDO motors to be at all quiet, but those are high-inductance. 🙂

      Could it be full frame resonance? Maybe add some weight to the base and see if that changes the natural freq and quiets it down at slow speeds

      Luke
      http://lukeslab.online

      undefined 1 Reply Last reply 25 May 2021, 15:27 Reply Quote 0
      • undefined
        Egon.Net @Luke'sLaboratory
        last edited by Egon.Net 25 May 2021, 15:27

        @luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:

        @egon-net
        2660's aren't the quietest drivers, but it might be worth to check out per-motor register tuning? I'm thinking of the same as I can't seem to get my 60mm LDO motors to be at all quiet, but those are high-inductance. 🙂

        Could it be full frame resonance? Maybe add some weight to the base and see if that changes the natural freq and quiets it down at slow speeds

        My old printer has the TMC2130 drivers IIRC, in spreadCycle mode and just shy of 1A. Can't configure anything else, and they are scary silent (can't hear them out of the enclosure if not moving fast)

        My new printer is built like a brick (3060/306060 extrusions bolted directly) and all metal. Maybe being too rigid means any vibration gets amplified by it...

        undefined undefined 2 Replies Last reply 25 May 2021, 15:29 Reply Quote 0
        • undefined
          Egon.Net @Egon.Net
          last edited by 25 May 2021, 15:29

          My old printer has the TMC2130 drivers IIRC, in spreadCycle mode and just shy of 1A. Can't configure anything else, and they are scary silent (can't hear them out of the enclosure if not moving fast)

          My new printer is built like a brick (3060/306060 extrusions bolted directly) and all metal. Maybe being too rigid means any vibration gets amplified by it...

          I tried to optmize the TMC parameters with an oscilloscope monitoring the current measuring resistor, but couldn't get any better than default.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • undefined
            Luke'sLaboratory @Egon.Net
            last edited by 25 May 2021, 15:32

            @egon-net just using extrusion without extra mass+damping definitely will vibe everything extra.

            My printers are 2040-4040, and without damping and extra mass are loud from just mechanical vibrations.

            Luke
            http://lukeslab.online

            undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 09:27 Reply Quote 0
            • undefined
              tpra
              last edited by tpra 25 May 2021, 18:28

              So. I made a picture comparison to be really clear about VFAs, ie very fine artifacts.
              (please look at it real size, else moire effect is pronounced)

              First it's something that you'll only on a carefuly tuned printer. Else it will be "hidden" by other things.
              It is super super visible with shiny filaments like petg (or colorfabb ngen in my case).
              It looks like very fine tiny vertical "waves", like ghosting, but with a constant amplitude.

              I still absolutly don't know what produces it exactly.
              However, in the picture attached :

              • both parts sliced from the exact same stl
              • both parts sliced with the same slicer profile in prusaslicer, just a lot faster for the klipper test
              • settings copied from the duet config when i switched to klipper (i mean no recalibration process)
              • pid's were obviously re-made after firmware switch

              20210525_201149.jpg

              undefined undefined 2 Replies Last reply 26 May 2021, 07:54 Reply Quote 0
              • undefined
                Egon.Net @tpra
                last edited by 26 May 2021, 07:54

                @tpra said in Wavy surface problem.:

                So. I made a picture comparison to be really clear about VFAs, ie very fine artifacts.
                (please look at it real size, else moire effect is pronounced)

                First it's something that you'll only on a carefuly tuned printer. Else it will be "hidden" by other things.
                It is super super visible with shiny filaments like petg (or colorfabb ngen in my case).
                It looks like very fine tiny vertical "waves", like ghosting, but with a constant amplitude.

                I still absolutly don't know what produces it exactly.
                However, in the picture attached :

                • both parts sliced from the exact same stl
                • both parts sliced with the same slicer profile in prusaslicer, just a lot faster for the klipper test
                • settings copied from the duet config when i switched to klipper (i mean no recalibration process)
                • pid's were obviously re-made after firmware switch

                20210525_201149.jpg

                I'd try again with Klipper at 50mm/s2, since I've noticed that VFA is way more noticeable with slower speed, just to be sure.

                undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 09:33 Reply Quote 0
                • undefined
                  Egon.Net @Luke'sLaboratory
                  last edited by 26 May 2021, 09:27

                  @luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:

                  @egon-net just using extrusion without extra mass+damping definitely will vibe everything extra.

                  My printers are 2040-4040, and without damping and extra mass are loud from just mechanical vibrations.

                  It already weights 30+ kg... It's quite tall.

                  undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 12:18 Reply Quote 0
                  • undefined
                    tpra @Egon.Net
                    last edited by tpra 26 May 2021, 09:33

                    @egon-net same quality at low speed. even better actually.
                    if i don't go faster with rrf it's because it produces too much ghosting but that's another story 🙂
                    anyway klipper produces the same quality from 40 to 130.

                    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 09:53 Reply Quote 0
                    • undefined
                      Egon.Net @tpra
                      last edited by 26 May 2021, 09:53

                      @tpra said in Wavy surface problem.:

                      @egon-net same quality at low speed. even better actually.
                      if i don't go faster with rrf it's because it produces too much ghosting but that's another story 🙂
                      anyway klipper produces the same quality from 40 to 130.

                      Can you test Klipper without input shaper? I wonder how much of the quality increase is beacuse of it...

                      undefined undefined 2 Replies Last reply 26 May 2021, 10:06 Reply Quote 1
                      • undefined
                        tpra @Egon.Net
                        last edited by 26 May 2021, 10:06

                        @egon-net said in Wavy surface problem.:

                        Can you test Klipper without input shaper? I wonder how much of the quality increase is beacuse of it...

                        Sure. as soon as the current print finishes i'll do that.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                        • undefined
                          Luke'sLaboratory @Egon.Net
                          last edited by 26 May 2021, 12:18

                          @egon-net

                          my largest is 622x622x1000, and i still added 30kg of concrete to the base. 🙂

                          shrug

                          Luke
                          http://lukeslab.online

                          undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 12:22 Reply Quote 0
                          • undefined
                            Egon.Net @Luke'sLaboratory
                            last edited by 26 May 2021, 12:22

                            @luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:

                            @egon-net

                            my largest is 622x622x1000, and i still added 30kg of concrete to the base. 🙂

                            shrug

                            And then you threw it to the river XDD Just joking...

                            Did u really noticed a decrease in noise/ringing after adding so much extra weight?

                            undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 12:29 Reply Quote 0
                            • undefined
                              Luke'sLaboratory @Egon.Net
                              last edited by 26 May 2021, 12:29

                              @egon-net

                              20201016_000159.jpg 20201015_204348.jpg

                              Suprisingly, yes!

                              I forget what the numbers were for feeds+speeds, but it made a considerable improvment for $12

                              Luke
                              http://lukeslab.online

                              undefined undefined undefined 3 Replies Last reply 26 May 2021, 13:16 Reply Quote 0
                              • undefined
                                Egon.Net @Luke'sLaboratory
                                last edited by 26 May 2021, 13:16

                                @luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:

                                @egon-net

                                20201016_000159.jpg 20201015_204348.jpg

                                Suprisingly, yes!

                                I forget what the numbers were for feeds+speeds, but it made a considerable improvment for $12

                                Holy cow! What a difference!

                                I already have installed an accelerometer, just waiting for the montion planner overhaul with imput shaping in reprapfirmware...

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • undefined
                                  gloomyandy @Luke'sLaboratory
                                  last edited by 26 May 2021, 13:19

                                  @luke-slaboratory So is that improvement from adding the extra mass to the printer?

                                  undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 13:20 Reply Quote 0
                                  • undefined
                                    Luke'sLaboratory @gloomyandy
                                    last edited by 26 May 2021, 13:20

                                    @gloomyandy

                                    Yessir! Both pictures were me trying to find the worst light where I was, but I fully admit that they're not 1:1 comparative since they weren't taken in the same spot.

                                    Luke
                                    http://lukeslab.online

                                    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 26 May 2021, 13:25 Reply Quote 0
                                    • undefined
                                      gloomyandy @Luke'sLaboratory
                                      last edited by 26 May 2021, 13:25

                                      @luke-slaboratory That's interesting though. Complex things these printers!

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • undefined
                                        Hiroaki @tpra
                                        last edited by 27 May 2021, 15:36

                                        @tpra Hello. That print result is excellent ! Can you show me a photo how your printer is constructed?

                                        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 31 May 2021, 06:21 Reply Quote 0
                                        • undefined
                                          CCS86 @Egon.Net
                                          last edited by 30 May 2021, 17:51

                                          @egon-net said in Wavy surface problem.:

                                          @tpra said in Wavy surface problem.:

                                          @egon-net same quality at low speed. even better actually.
                                          if i don't go faster with rrf it's because it produces too much ghosting but that's another story 🙂
                                          anyway klipper produces the same quality from 40 to 130.

                                          Can you test Klipper without input shaper? I wonder how much of the quality increase is beacuse of it...

                                          I am very curious to see this as well!

                                          Input shaper benefits are pretty well established at this point, and I am anxiously awaiting the feature to roll out for RRF (hopefully supporting my Maestro board). But, I have had a suspicion that something in RRF is driving the steppers in a way that sets up a resonance.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          49 out of 64
                                          • First post
                                            49/64
                                            Last post
                                          Unless otherwise noted, all forum content is licensed under CC-BY-SA