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New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W

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  • undefined
    o_lampe @PCR
    last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 07:35

    @pcr I wonder, if it would also work for the Zero 2W? A quad-core 1GHz SBC-board with CAN-FD would be a gamechanger...

    undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 07:40 Reply Quote 0
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      PCR @o_lampe
      last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 07:40

      @o_lampe
      Should

      https://copperhilltech.com/pican-fd-zero-can-fd-hat-for-raspberry-pi-zero-with-1a-smps/

      undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 07:47 Reply Quote 1
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        o_lampe @PCR
        last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 07:47

        @pcr @T3P3Tony If we could integrate CAN-FD as PIO state machine in M0(Pico) hardware, we would only need a tranceiver...

        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 08:21 Reply Quote 0
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          oliof @o_lampe
          last edited by oliof 30 Oct 2021, 08:21

          @o_lampe is that realtime capable though?

          <>RatRig V-Minion Fly Super5Pro RRF<> V-Core 3.1 IDEX k*****r <> RatRig V-Minion SKR 2 Marlin<>

          undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 09:07 Reply Quote 0
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            o_lampe @oliof
            last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 09:07

            @oliof I started reading about PIO statemachines yesterday, so I might got a wrong impression. They say, those state machine work independant from the processor.
            I assume RRF uses them for pulse generation, too.

            undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 12:37 Reply Quote 0
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              gloomyandy @o_lampe
              last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 12:37

              @o_lampe said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

              They say, those state machine work independant from the processor.
              I assume RRF uses them for pulse generation, too.

              Does RRF currently run on any hardware that has a PIO state machine?

              undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 12:59 Reply Quote 0
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                o_lampe @gloomyandy
                last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 12:59

                @gloomyandy
                It seems only the M0 processor has those state machines. The M4 (duet2) doesn't have.
                I'm not even sure, if the Sam-C21 has them, although it's from the M0 family.

                undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 13:19 Reply Quote 0
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                  gloomyandy @o_lampe
                  last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 13:19

                  @o_lampe I may be wrong but I think that those pio blocks are part of the rPi silicon and not part of the Arm core.

                  Most of these devices are a combination of a core from Arm plus manufacturer specific peripheral devices. So for instance the SPI device on an STM mcu is more than likely totally different to the SPI devices on a microchip mcu even if they both have the same Arm core. Things get a little bit more confusing though because Arm does provide some standard peripheral designs, that some manufacturers may use (or I think can even modify). So for instance the the SSP device on the LPC1768 (which provides SPI functionality) is actually an ARM PrimeCell Synchronous Serial Port (PL022).

                  undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 13:48 Reply Quote 0
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                    T3P3Tony administrators @gloomyandy
                    last edited by T3P3Tony 30 Oct 2021, 13:48

                    @gloomyandy said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

                    pio blocks are part of the rPi silicon and not part of the Arm core.

                    Yes they are rpi specific

                    Some Atmel/Microchip processors have a similar (but much more limited) idea called "configurable custom logic" designed as hardware "glue logic".

                    @o_lampe said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

                    PIO statemachines .....I assume RRF uses them for pulse generation

                    We do not as they are Rpi 2040 specific. Although we have considered a range of options for pulse generation.

                    @o_lampe said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

                    If we could integrate CAN-FD as PIO state machine in M0(Pico) hardware, we would only need a tranceiver...

                    Yes, that would be great, anyone found an example of CAN or a similar protocol implemented on 2040 statemachines, with a reference for what bus speeds could be accommodated?

                    @PCR using that CAN-FD bus IC & transceiver with a Pi (either directly on a Pi 2/3/4, or using a 2040 + USB to a PC) could certainly allow for bus monitoring and protocol diagnosis, independent of using an oscilloscope so that could be interesting.

                    Alternatively it might allow Klipper or similar to use Duet 3 expansion boards w/o a mainboard, they could implement the Duet CAN-FD protocol on the pi and send the planned moves to each board....

                    www.duet3d.com

                    undefined undefined 3 Replies Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 13:53 Reply Quote 1
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                      o_lampe @T3P3Tony
                      last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 13:53

                      @t3p3tony said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

                      Alternatively it might allow Klipper or similar to use Duet 3 expansion boards w/o a mainboard, they could implement the Duet CAN-FD protocol on the pi and send the planned moves to each board....

                      That would be really great for slicing&pre-processing of multi-stream gcode

                      undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 14:26 Reply Quote 0
                      • undefined
                        T3P3Tony administrators @o_lampe
                        last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 14:26

                        @o_lampe neither of those is really specific to klipper though. slicing sits outside of the firmware used and if you are using a Pi then DSF allows you to intercept and modify the gcode.

                        www.duet3d.com

                        undefined 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2021, 15:39 Reply Quote 0
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                          o_lampe @T3P3Tony
                          last edited by 30 Oct 2021, 15:39

                          @t3p3tony I just wanted to point out, that an SBC can do so much more for us, then just display DWC.

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                            zapta @T3P3Tony
                            last edited by zapta 30 Oct 2021, 17:07

                            @t3p3tony said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

                            Alternatively it might allow Klipper or similar to use Duet 3 expansion boards w/o a mainboard, they could implement the Duet CAN-FD protocol on the pi and send the planned moves to each board....

                            Does the duet main board send move commands over CAN in real time or does it just sync clocks and then send queued moves with target start time?

                            The former will put hard realtime constrains on the SBC, the later is more relaxed.

                            As for the Pico's PIOs, they are awesome. The stepper analyzer uses them to write to the display which achieves a significant boost. Typically they communicate with the software via hardware fifos that can be accessed programmatically or by DMA. For example, the MCU (there are two of them) can write the stepper pulse commands (e.g. interval and direction) to a double buffer and trigger a DMA to send them to the pio. Also, the the RP2040 are very cheap but like many other chips these days are hard to get.

                            For CAN bus implementation, I would check in the Pico forums, they also have strong presence from the vendor. https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewforum.php?f=143

                            undefined 1 Reply Last reply 31 Oct 2021, 06:31 Reply Quote 0
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                              o_lampe @zapta
                              last edited by o_lampe 31 Oct 2021, 06:31

                              @zapta That's really good news about the PIOs. I hope we can gain enough interest and gather some SW-experts to make the best possible gadget.
                              I still hope it's not all CAN related, for the sake of Duet2 owners...

                              BTW: Berrybase.de still has almost 20.000 of them in stock.

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • undefined
                                o_lampe
                                last edited by 31 Oct 2021, 08:56

                                I played a bit with the Z2W and compared it with a RPi3b. They have the same cpu, but the Z2W constantly uses the swap-file in GUI mode.
                                I even had to increase the swap-size (default only 100MB)
                                The eMMC-uSD card I also bought, has no significant speed gain over class 10 SD card. (RPi4 benchmarks are much better)

                                My first impression: if you already have a RPi3 or better, and @PCR 's CAN-FD Hat will fit there too, there's no reason to spend extra money for a Z2W.
                                The Pico is still interesting as a low level CoPro. Time will tell...

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                                  o_lampe @T3P3Tony
                                  last edited by 3 Nov 2021, 07:54

                                  @t3p3tony said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

                                  @PCR using that CAN-FD bus IC & transceiver with a Pi (either directly on a Pi 2/3/4, or using a 2040 + USB to a PC) could certainly allow for bus monitoring and protocol diagnosis, independent of using an oscilloscope so that could be interesting.

                                  I read more about Pico's PIO state machines and there is a sample code about a logic analyzer (16 channel IIRC). Just thought it was worth mentioning it in this context.

                                  undefined 1 Reply Last reply 3 Nov 2021, 10:34 Reply Quote 0
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                                    dc42 administrators @o_lampe
                                    last edited by 3 Nov 2021, 10:34

                                    While the PIO state machines look very useful, the amount of instruction memory (32 instructions) and scratchpad memory (2x 32 bits) are nothing like enough to implement a protocol with the complexity of CAN-FD.

                                    Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
                                    Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
                                    http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com

                                    undefined undefined 2 Replies Last reply 3 Nov 2021, 11:48 Reply Quote 0
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                                      o_lampe @dc42
                                      last edited by 3 Nov 2021, 11:48

                                      @dc42 I felt the same, when I studied the CanHack.py program. So we'd need both Can chips to make it work.

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                                        zapta @dc42
                                        last edited by 4 Nov 2021, 06:31

                                        @dc42 said in New Raspberry Pi Zero 2W:

                                        While the PIO state machines look very useful, the amount of instruction memory (32 instructions) and scratchpad memory (2x 32 bits) are nothing like enough to implement a protocol with the complexity of CAN-FD.

                                        @dc42, I am not familiar with CAN bus. What does the PIO need to do other than serializing bits in/out or detect collisions? Those PIO instructions are very capable (they have multiple fields and can do a few things in one instructions) and work well with the the hardware FIFOs, DMAs, and MCU interrupts.

                                        undefined undefined 2 Replies Last reply 4 Nov 2021, 06:43 Reply Quote 0
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                                          o_lampe @zapta
                                          last edited by o_lampe 11 Apr 2021, 06:44 4 Nov 2021, 06:43

                                          @zapta The CanHack program lists many subroutines for testing and demonstration purposes and some real life routines. They are usually only a few lines of code. In C++ they might even be more compact.
                                          But for compatibility reasons beween Pico(with state machines) and Z2W(no state machines), the Can-Hat should have both Can chips anyway...

                                          undefined 1 Reply Last reply 4 Nov 2021, 07:22 Reply Quote 0
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