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    Control for “Maslow” style cnc

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    • CNCModellerundefined
      CNCModeller @o_lampe
      last edited by

      @o_lampe I like the idea definitely something worth thinking about.

      Polar Duet3 Mini + 1HCL
      https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWjZVEdMv1BY82izahK45qKh-hp3NFkix
      Wanhao D4S: Duet2
      https://forum.duet3d.com/post/296755
      K40 Laser, Duet2
      https://forum.duet3d.com/post/312082
      Wanhao D5S
      https://www.youtube.com/CNCModellerUK

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      • o_lampeundefined
        o_lampe @CNCModeller
        last edited by

        @CNCModeller said in Control for “Maslow” style cnc:

        a large plotter to mark out the cuts

        That'll be much more accurate I guess, but the pen would need a bit of downforce to write. Maybe a small vacuum hose on the effector? Or an airbrush instead of a pen? That way you can also put your Logo on the crates or a "Fragile" sign...
        A diode laser would probably work too, but the lines would be very fine.

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        • droftartsundefined
          droftarts administrators @CNCModeller
          last edited by

          @CNCModeller said in Control for “Maslow” style cnc:

          I could just use a large plotter

          Something like the open source Makelangelo would work: https://www.marginallyclever.com/products/makelangelo-5-huge/
          It runs on Marlin, so I'd think it would be transportable to Duet: https://www.marginallyclever.com/2021/10/friday-facts-4-how-to-marlin-polargraph/
          A very old blog post about the kinematics https://www.marginallyclever.com/2012/02/drawbot-overview/
          His software looks pretty fully-featured for making wall art, too.

          Alternatively https://www.instructables.com/Polargraph-Wall-Draw-Bot-2023/ has a link to GRBL-Polargraph fork.

          I'm pretty keen to make one of these, too, in case you hadn't realised... Somehow just need to find the time to see if the Hangprinter kinematics will work, or if we need to lift the Polargraph kinematics from Marlin or GRBL.

          It would be cool to mount a low power diode laser on something like this to cut custom cardboard packaging, too.

          Ian

          Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

          o_lampeundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
          • o_lampeundefined
            o_lampe @droftarts
            last edited by

            @droftarts I started building a test-rig, but without steppers. Just to proove my belt-length correction theory. It's still a lot to compensate, I think I might use a torque-mode BLDC instead of the weight. (simpleFOC driven, since it can be completely independent from RRF)

            IMG_20231101_131949706_MFNR.jpg

            PS: The effector was the first thing I found when looking for a triangle shaped thing. I might make a supercheap sandtable instead.

            droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
            • droftartsundefined
              droftarts administrators @o_lampe
              last edited by

              @o_lampe Nice. Did it work?! I think what you have nearly made is a CoreXY! The nice thing about the Polarbots is that they only need two pivot points, at the motor. Yours needs a full frame, so it may as well be a CoreXY, perhaps more like https://corexy.com/botofthecloth/index.html

              What I've noticed from most of the polarbots I've looked at is that there is a linkage for each belt around the centre of the effector, so that it's always a straight line between motor and 'pen' (or spindle). The Makelangelo and Maslow does this, in different ways. More complicated physically, but less computation within the kinematics.

              Ian

              Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

              o_lampeundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • o_lampeundefined
                o_lampe @droftarts
                last edited by

                @droftarts Opposite to a CoreXY I don't need linear guides or a crossbeam. The motion is similar, but there's no linear correlation between A+B motors.
                Until the weekend I'll have a stepper driven rig. Then I can post a video.

                droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • droftartsundefined
                  droftarts administrators @o_lampe
                  last edited by

                  @o_lampe I just realised the Maslow4 is quite different. The Maslow 1 and 2 (no idea what happened to Maslow 3) were polarbots, with a belt/chain from each top corner, but the Maslow 4 is more like a 2D quad-tower delta, and probably much closer to Hangprinter than previous versions. Again, the Hangprinter kinematics might do this, too.

                  Ian

                  Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                  o_lampeundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • o_lampeundefined
                    o_lampe @droftarts
                    last edited by o_lampe

                    @droftarts Maybe the Maslow_3 was a flop and that's why they again had to kickstart their next project? They even pulled the "Ukraine" card to gain more money.
                    IMHO the Maslow_4 isn't a good design, using brushed DC motors and expensive ODrive controllers.

                    there is a linkage for each belt around the centre of the effector, so that it's always a straight line between motor and 'pen'
                    I think I figured out how to trick RRF to do the correct calculations without rotating belt links. It's similar to Delta-kinematics, where we have to measure rod length and horizontal distance between towers and effector.
                    I just have to measure the horizontal distance from motorshaft (minus pulley radius) to the fixed link on the effector. Will add it in my next picture for reference.

                    PS: I like the BotofTheCloth idea with it's strap-on corners. For a plotter or laser it might be good enough: Just buy a 8' x 6' plywood sheet and clamp the motors and idlers directly. No need for a permanent frame which only occupies workspace 99% of the time.

                    CNCModellerundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • CNCModellerundefined
                      CNCModeller @o_lampe
                      last edited by

                      @o_lampe said in Control for “Maslow” style cnc:

                      PS: I like the BotofTheCloth idea with its strap-on corners. For a plotter or laser it might be good enough: Just buy a 8' x 6' plywood sheet and clamp the motors and idlers directly. No need for a permanent frame which only occupies workspace 99% of the time.

                      I had exactly the sam thought, personally the idea of having all of the moving parts in the plotter carriage with just a fixed anchor point at the corner of the 8x6 sheet would be ideal. Literally just put a screw in each corner and attach the belts, calibrate, and you’re r away. Ideally everything would retract into the plotter carriage for storage.

                      I also like the idea of a diode laser to mark out for manual cuts and labelling.

                      I could even see a larger version being used to layout where you put holes for steelwork or walls etc on a building concrete slab during construction.

                      All interesting stuff…

                      Polar Duet3 Mini + 1HCL
                      https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWjZVEdMv1BY82izahK45qKh-hp3NFkix
                      Wanhao D4S: Duet2
                      https://forum.duet3d.com/post/296755
                      K40 Laser, Duet2
                      https://forum.duet3d.com/post/312082
                      Wanhao D5S
                      https://www.youtube.com/CNCModellerUK

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                      • o_lampeundefined
                        o_lampe
                        last edited by o_lampe

                        I added steppers and a central tightening winch. The idea of the hidden weight is not too good, because it would almost move the same as if it was connected directly to the effector.
                        This way it won't work with the strap-on corner idea, unless you are willing to drill 3 holes in the 8x6 everytime.

                        Torque-winch.jpg

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                        • o_lampeundefined
                          o_lampe
                          last edited by

                          I tried my luck and modified config for a 2D hangprinter.
                          It seems RRF3.4.6 already has the latest version of HP-kinematics. It is oddly specific regarding spool diameter and all.

                          m98 p"config.g"
                          Error: Wrong number of values after '''D''', expected 3
                          Q:Buildup fac 0.0070
                          R:Spool r 75.00, 75.00, 75.00, 75.00
                          U:Mech Adv 2, 2, 2, 4
                          O:Lines/spool 1, 1, 1, 1
                          L:Motor gear teeth 20, 20, 20, 20
                          H:Spool gear teeth 255, 255, 255, 255
                          J:Full steps/rev 25, 25, 25, 25
                          HTTP is enabled on port 80
                          FTP is disabled
                          TELNET is disabled
                          
                          droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • droftartsundefined
                            droftarts administrators @o_lampe
                            last edited by

                            @o_lampe What are the commands you are using to define it? I'd imagine that the C and D motors don't really matter in M669. Are the other values set in firmware? That might rather limit the usefulness of the Hangprinter kinematics.

                            Ian

                            Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

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                            • o_lampeundefined
                              o_lampe @droftarts
                              last edited by o_lampe

                              @droftarts I figured, I could use any two of the ABC motor to define a 2D plane. So I took the BC motors, because they already defined the left and right corner. (A motor is the front/center motor)
                              Here's the basic config.g, but I don't know how to match XY with ABCD or how to define a tool for a plotter

                              ; Configuration file for Duet WiFi (firmware version 3)
                              ;
                              ; General preferences
                              G90                                                    ; send absolute coordinates...
                              M83                                                    ; ...but relative extruder moves
                              M550 P"Hangprinter_2D"                                     ; set printer name
                              
                              M669 K6 A0.0:220.0:0.0 B-220.0:220.0:0.0 C220.0:220.0:0.0 D2000.0 P100.0 Q0.0 R1 
                              
                              
                              M666 X0 Y0 Z0                                          ; put your endstop adjustments here, or let auto calibration find them
                              
                              ; Network
                              M552 S1                                                ; enable network
                              M586 P0 S1                                             ; enable HTTP
                              M586 P1 S0                                             ; disable FTP
                              M586 P2 S0                                             ; disable Telnet
                              
                              ; Drives
                              M569 P0 S0                                             ; physical drive 0 goes forwards
                              M569 P1 S0                                             ; physical drive 1 goes forwards
                              M569 P2 S0                                             ; physical drive 2 goes forwards
                              M569 P3 S0                                             ; physical drive 3 goes forwards
                              
                              M584 A0 B1 C2 D3                                             ; set drive mapping 
                              M350 A16 B16 C16 D16 I1                                ; configure microstepping with interpolation
                              M92 A200.00 B200.00 C200.00 D0                       ; set steps per mm
                              M566 A900.00 B900.00 C900.00 D1200              ; set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
                              M203 A24000.00 B24000.00 C24000.00 D4800            ; set maximum speeds (mm/min)
                              M201 A4000.00 B4000.00 C4000.00 D1000               ; set accelerations (mm/s^2)
                              M906 A200 B400 C400 D200 I70                        ; set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
                              
                              M84 S10                                                ; Set idle timeout
                              
                              
                              ; Axis Limits
                              M208 X-100:100 Y-100:100 Z0:10
                              
                              
                              ; Tools
                              M563 P0                                           ; define tool 0
                              G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0                                       ; set tool 0 axis offsets
                              
                              
                              M911 S20 R22 P"M913 X0 Y0 G91 M83 G1 Z3 E-5 F1000"     ; set voltage thresholds and actions to run on power loss
                              T0                                                     ; select first tool
                              
                              
                              

                              //edit OK, I guess I found the reason for one of the errormessages: "D" on has one parameter in my config, but needs three....
                              YES, that solved most of it, although I still don't know, if I have to map AB drives to XY axes? I guess it should be done automatically by the kinematic model?

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                              • droftartsundefined
                                droftarts administrators @o_lampe
                                last edited by

                                @o_lampe Looks like our Hangprinter documentation needs updating; there's a whole bunch of parameters not covered on the wiki page here https://docs.duet3d.com/User_manual/Machine_configuration/Configuration_Hangprinter
                                Looks like you can define Q, R, U, O, L, H and J: https://github.com/Duet3D/RepRapFirmware/blob/47435151e110f373fc80721a2c265e38b8ec5e3b/src/Movement/Kinematics/HangprinterKinematics.cpp#L203
                                So it's coming up with sensible numbers for those as well, I guess. There's a reasonable amount of comments in HangprinterKinematics.cpp to hopefully work out what is going on!

                                Ian

                                Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

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                                • droftartsundefined
                                  droftarts administrators @o_lampe
                                  last edited by

                                  @o_lampe Also note that, as of RRF 3.5.0-beta4, Hangprinter support is removed from Duet 2 WiFi/Ethernet builds. RRF 3.4.6 is fine, though. Just in case you decide to update!
                                  https://github.com/Duet3D/RepRapFirmware/wiki/Changelog-RRF-3.x-Beta#reprapfirmware-350-beta4

                                  [Duet 2] Hangprinter kinematics are no longer supported in the standard build of Duet2CombinedFirmware because of lack of flash memory space

                                  Ian

                                  Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

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                                  • o_lampeundefined
                                    o_lampe @droftarts
                                    last edited by o_lampe

                                    @droftarts I have made some progress and got motion in the right directions. But tightening the belts and adding some gravity needs a propper balance of forces. I played with the L&H values and Q&R as well, but didn't see a difference.

                                    @CNCModeller How about window cleaning on skyscrapers? The strap-on corners will fit almost anywhere.

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                                    • o_lampeundefined
                                      o_lampe
                                      last edited by o_lampe

                                      I played a bit more with the HP-kinematics, but there are some weird things I couldn't work out yet:

                                      • No matter what I set as steps/mm, it always moves 1/3 of the requested length (XYZABCD, tried all)
                                      • I can't move past X0. Positive X-moves are straight, but lower than X0, it starts to make a curve
                                      • although I only have ABCD axes in the kinematic model, I have to set motor currents for XYZ??

                                      Not very promissing.
                                      I really don't want to dig out an old RAMPS controller and bite my teeth out, configuring Marlin 😞

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                                      • o_lampeundefined
                                        o_lampe @o_lampe
                                        last edited by o_lampe

                                        I found the inverse kinematics which are pretty simple.
                                        Just don't want to fall in this rabbit hole called "RRF compiling...with Eclipse"

                                        ; inverse kinematics of Makelangelo polargraph plotter
                                        
                                        function IK(P) {
                                          A = Px - M1x;  
                                          B = Py - M1y;  
                                          M1P = square_root(A*A+B*B);
                                          A = Px - M2x;  
                                          // B is the same
                                          M2P = square_root(A*A+B*B);
                                        
                                          return M1P,M2P;
                                        }
                                        
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                                        • o_lampeundefined
                                          o_lampe
                                          last edited by o_lampe

                                          I completely missed that M666 alters the Q,R,L,H,J... settings. Now I've set them to my best knowledge, but now the steppers don't energize.
                                          I had to set a Q-value greater 0 to make it work.
                                          The XY axes both work in the right direction, but they aren't perpendicular to each other.

                                          m669
                                          Kinematics is Hangprinter, 100 segments/sec, min. segment length 0.20mm
                                          A:0.00, -200.00, 0.00
                                          B:193.00, 241.00, 0.00
                                          C:-193.00, 241.00, 0.00
                                          D:0.00, 0.00, 200.00
                                          P:Print radius: 200.0
                                          
                                          m666
                                          Q:Buildup fac 0.0000
                                          R:Spool r 6.00, 6.00, 6.00, 6.00
                                          U:Mech Adv 1, 1, 1, 1
                                          O:Lines/spool 1, 1, 1, 1
                                          L:Motor gear teeth 20, 20, 20, 20
                                          H:Spool gear teeth 20, 20, 20, 20
                                          J:Full steps/rev 200, 200, 200, 200
                                          
                                          droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • droftartsundefined droftarts referenced this topic
                                          • droftartsundefined
                                            droftarts administrators @o_lampe
                                            last edited by

                                            @o_lampe I'm not sure where you are up to on your project, but a couple of notes might help from my Polargraph.

                                            although I only have ABCD axes in the kinematic model, I have to set motor currents for XYZ??

                                            In the config.g you posted earlier (which you may already have changed), you have defined the ABCD axes in M584. However, Hangprinter maps the ABCD drives to XYZU. Because ABCD are really anchor points, rather than motor axes. All speeds, accelerations, motor currents etc are in terms of XYZU. See https://docs.duet3d.com/User_manual/Machine_configuration/Configuration_Hangprinter#select-hangprinter-kinematics

                                            I can't move past X0. Positive X-moves are straight, but lower than X0, it starts to make a curve

                                            I had this too. It was caused by the motor assignments, and I actually had the motors mapped incorrectly. Because you only want to use the B and C anchor points, you only use the Y and Z motor assignments. For a long time I was using X and Y! Made particularly confusing for me, because I have the Z motor driver for the Y axis, and E1 motor driver for Z axis. If only we had just called them driver 0 to 4! See the config.g in the Polargraph thread: https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/35248/duet-polargraph

                                            I think you resolved the M666 problems, and I think mine are set similar to yours. As far as I can tell, it's mostly to do with gearing and spool wind up, so largely irrelevant for our application, just have to set sensible numbers.

                                            Ian

                                            Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

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